Justice Watch Support JW "Newseum Transcript 1: Ramseys re. the Media" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... Newseum Transcript 1: Ramseys re. the Media, Dunvegan, 14:11:04, 3/24/2001 Newseum Transcript (1 of 2), Dunvegan, 14:12:50, 3/24/2001, (#1) Just wanted to highlight one thing in pa..., Dunvegan, 14:16:00, 3/24/2001, (#3) Gad!, JR, 16:07:29, 3/24/2001, (#8) Oh Dun!, Edie Pratt, 14:15:33, 3/24/2001, (#2) Holy Batman, Watching you, 14:22:58, 3/24/2001, (#4) isn't "and hence" redundant?, Edie Pratt, 14:34:52, 3/24/2001, (#5) Hang on, Edie...it gets..., Dunvegan, 14:42:41, 3/24/2001, (#6) Dunvegan to the rescue!, Sabrina, 14:48:37, 3/24/2001, (#7) oh dear, v_p, 16:54:24, 3/24/2001, (#9) Dunvegan Does It Again!!, sarah, 17:36:58, 3/24/2001, (#10) very, very interesting..., Edie Pratt, 17:51:44, 3/24/2001, (#11) Good find, docg, 21:08:18, 3/24/2001, (#15) And hence...the government, Ginja, 19:21:46, 3/24/2001, (#13) Hi Edie :) And Here's Another one, sarah, 19:19:03, 3/24/2001, (#12) Hi, Sarah!, Edie Pratt, 19:29:36, 3/24/2001, (#14) Also, momo, 21:55:45, 3/24/2001, (#16) Ginja, sarah, 07:09:10, 3/25/2001, (#17) Wonder....., rose, 10:53:33, 3/25/2001, (#19) I can't help it, janphi, 10:41:47, 3/25/2001, (#18) Um..., JR, 19:52:49, 3/25/2001, (#25) What a trooper!, Anton, 12:12:19, 3/25/2001, (#20) Wasn't Disclosure, janphi, 15:32:35, 3/25/2001, (#24) A Goldmine, Dunvegan., listener, 13:07:16, 3/25/2001, (#21) Thank you, Listener..., Dunvegan, 13:37:02, 3/25/2001, (#22) Incredible, Starling, 14:25:17, 3/25/2001, (#23) Yeppers, Anton, 20:13:01, 3/25/2001, (#26) ................................................................... "Newseum Transcript 1: Ramseys re. the Media" Posted by Dunvegan on 14:11:04 3/24/2001 I'll post this in two parts, of which this is the first...it's a long interview, and my fingers need a rest. When the Ramseys did the Newseum webcast interview on 10/12/2000...I was at work and had a hard time listening to the entire interview (I have a hard time listening to Patsy's and John's voices ANYTIME, but that's a separate issue.) However, I took down the address at the Newseum website where they said one could write for a cassette tape of the program. A couple of weeks ago the free tape of the show arrived...but I put it in a cubby of my desk, to listen to later. However, I remembered that John reacted during this interview, with very scathing language in his assessment of the tabloids...so, since the "recent developments in the media," I thought it might be worth transcribing so we could all take a look. Since Newseum is a non-profit and educational entity...and they will gladly send anyone a free tape of any broadcast, I hope that by acknowledging them, and quoting very carefully, this is not infringement. Again...it's quite long, so I'll post the first half now, and take a break...posting the rest later tonight...or tomorrow morning. Pedro, everyone: please let me know if it is too long to be posted in-line here at JW, or you have any other problem with this transcript. If so, I can move it to an external web page and just post a link. [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "Newseum Transcript (1 of 2)" Posted by Dunvegan on 14:12:50 3/24/2001 From the Newseum interview "Inside Media: Coverage and Controversies with the Ramseys", of October 12th, 2000. http://www.newseum.org/ The moderators: Blake Morrison and Eric Newton. (Here was a short preamble...introducing the Ramseys to the audience.) MODERATOR: John, why did decide to come and talk to the class today? JOHN RAMSEY: Well...when something like this happens in your life, um...it causes you to really examine...uh, life. And, uh there's certainly a strong feeling on Patsy's and my part, that we want something good to come out of...this. Um...JonBenet was a beautiful child, uh...we loved her dearly...and, there's certainly a side of us that is grateful that the country...uh, took note of that. There are 800 children murdered in this country every year. And, for some reason, uh...this caught the world's attention. And, uh...we did a lot of thinking about...well...'cause we were litterally under siege. We'd been, you know: accused, tried, and convicted in the media, of murdering our daughter. And, uh...we really had two choices. One was to try to make a difference, we saw a lot of wrongs in our system...or, just...crawl in a hole and shut the world out. Well, we decided, well...for JonBenet's sake, for the sake of our children, and their children, we gotta try to make a difference. And, um...how do we make a difference? Um..and this was an opportunity to, we thought, to talk to young people who are gonna be in the profession; the media profession...um, let them understand from our perspective: on the receiving end...the good and the bad we saw. A lot of bad...but we did see some good. Uh, so perhaps when they go out in the world, and um...and exercize their profession, they'll...um...have a litlle different perspective....perhaps a little more real perspective with what they're dealing with. Cause they're dealing with real people. MODERATOR: Patsy: As a former journalism student, yourself, what should the students here look for...uh, today...that they might not be able to get just sitting in the classroom...listening to me talk? PATSY RAMSEY: I would hope that they would come away with the understanding that...we are real people. You know, I think a lot of time when the news, um...coverage, you know, hits us everyday, and everyday, and everyday...it's always "the other guy"...you know: this is never going to happen to me...this is somebody far, far away. We've been fictionalized as people that we're not...so, I want them to understand that in the years to come, when you are reporting about individuals that they are people. They are human beings. They have feelings, theys have, you know, rights to privacy...and just because you are a journalist, does not give you carte blanche to, you know, drag them through the mud, basically. MODERATOR: Well, let's get our students down to the microphones...so that they can start asking their questions, and, while you're coming down, I've got another one for John. You talk in your book about the, um..."sides of the media"...the good side, the bad side, and, clearly, you feel - JOHN RAMSEY: - We've seen both - MODERATOR: -You've spent a lot of side on the "bad side"- JOHN RAMSEY: - We did - MODERATOR: Well, what are some examples of things that happened to you...something that happens to you when you are on the "good side", and something that happens when you are on the "bad side"? JOHN RAMSEY: Well...in our case we certainly felt, uh...we were...we were...um...devastated by the loss of our child. Uh...and having gone through this twice, myself...and Patsy (we lost our older daughter) uh, you pretty much just want to shut the world out...yet, the world -through the media- was, uh...intruding our space...(Note: word here is slurred: could be "wildly"...or could be "violence") wildly, from our perspective. And, um...we just felt...violated...that...we didn't want our picture taken, we didn't want that, uh...you know, that attention. And, um, in the beginning...uh, I think we saw most of the "bad side"...uh, we saw the tabloid...uh, uh...side of the media. The way the tabloid works is that they have...uh, they put out a call for pictures, and a picture is very important to a tabloid...then they can write a story around it. So, if the picture is "unusual" they can make a very "unusual" story around it. And there's a lot of freelance photographers that that's how they make a living, they get a picture, and if it's a good one, they can sell it, make several thousand dollars, and they sell it to the tabloids. We saw that side of the media; it's very intrusive. Uh, uh...telephoto lenses aimed in our window, uh...the gravesite...uh...JonBenet's gravesite...uh, we found a hidden camera there...eventually, after we saw the picture of my older son at the cemetery in one of the tabloid pictures, uh - newspapers. And, a friend of ours, came up with an analogy that I thought was perfect: he said it was like you're the red fox, and you're being pursued by the dogs, in an English hunt...and the dogs are the tabloid...uh, media. And the more proper hunters, on the horseback, are the mainstream media. And, while the tabloid media is churning up all the innuendos, and uh, the uh, accusations...sadly, what's happened, to a large degree, is that the mainstream media is capitalizing on that, and...uh, in some cases, reporting it as fact. MODERATOR: So, working almost like a team, is what you're saying, rather than two different - JOHN RAMSEY: - Yeah, yeah...from our perspective, we felt like "the poor little fox ". We had to, uh...had to plan where we, uh...where we could find our points of refuge. MODERATOR: Well, we'll get back to this...but, let's see what our students have to ask today, and we'll go to them. And, you can...don't be shy...come down and line up, so that we can go from one to the other. Uh...you're on "Inside Media"; please tell us who you are, and ask your question. STUDENT QUESTIONER #1: My name is Ryan (redacted), and I'm a student at the University of Maryland, and I'd just like to express gratitude again for giving us his experience: thanks a lot. And, my question would be this: you've already discussed the intrusiveness of the tabloids in their coverage...but, which news organizations would you have found to be the most fair and professional, in their coverage of the investigation of your daughter's death? JOHN RAMSEY: That's...uh, a good question. Heh, heh...uh...I think they...I can't point to one that I feel has been...uh, completely...uh, accurate and completely fair, and completely correct. I think they all erred...uh, (sigh). The, uh...you know, we developed a...uh...I'd call it a hatred for the media, based on our experience at the beginning. And we...and as we...overtime begin to meet, what I call the "legitimate journalists" and, uh...people that are...uh, at the top of the profession, we begin to realize, "Well, these people are decent people. They're smart, they're trying to do a good job. Um, and yet we've been so biased by the "dark side" of the media. Uh, and so it was hard for us to sort out who's the good guy and who's the bad guy...and a lot of...we shut out a lot of it, because we just couldn't, uh...couldn't deal with it. It was hurtful, it would make us angry when things were reported that weren't true...um, and so, the solution for us was just to shut it out. We took television out of our home a couple years ago...uh, because we didn't want our son to, uh...stumble across Geraldo trying us on television, or something like that...and that was the only way we could be assured that...uh...that wouldn't happen. Uh, so we shut a lot of it out. To some degree, we don't know...because we haven't...we don't follow it. We don't, uh...read all the stories. But, uh...(pause)...the, um...I've told by...um, friends of ours who did follow it, um, that the Washington Post did a pretty good job of accuracy, and staying out of the mud. But that's second-hand information. Uh, 'cause I didn't...I didn't follow it. MODERATOR: Would you - PATSY RAMSEY: -Follow up on that...and, be sure to check it out...cause you can't just take his words for it (!) (Laughter from audience, moderators, John.) That's the best...ha, ha! - MODERATOR: - Well, Patsy, can I ask you about that, because, in retrospect John's spoke about how you folks basically went into seclusion from the media, or tried to, as best you could. Do you think there's anything that either of you could have done differently that might have helped the media portray you in a more fair, accurate, complete way? PATSY RAMSEY: You know, we had just lost our child...we weren't concerned with helping portray anything. Um, I get criticized for not having...we both do...for not having "acted right." You know...I (sigh) I spent weeks and weeks and weeks in bed. Immobile. You know: crying. So...you know...no, we weren't out there giving a response...because we were, you know...back there crying our eyes out. So, um...I don't feel obligated, nor did I then, to have to provide information about...you know...to try to get people to...to paint a picture of myself...or something - JOHN RAMSEY: - You know, people ask us: "Well, how could you...how could you have stood all this attention and accusation in the press. And, what our response is -and, it's...it's...it's very genuine - you know...uh, we lost our child. And, that was the worst thing that could happen to us. What followed was small by comparison. And, and...for a long time, was...was of no consequence to us. Uh...you know, it was hurtful. Uh, but we'd been hurt deeper that anyone could hurt us again. PATSY RAMSEY: What WAS bad was...I mean, you had to...to...realize where we were coming from. We - there was a murderer in our home. Yeah...this murderer is still at large. So when we would come...um, back to our car, to a parking lot, and all of a sudden this...you know...this MAN(!) jumped out from between a car with something in his hand...I don't know whether it's a journalist or a...or a nut-case. Or, the murderer! I don't know if that's a camera, or a gun. I mean, it's frightening. You know, when...when you KNOW that there is a...a madman out there, and then JOURNALISTS, you know, for the sake of the public's right to know...(exasperated gasp)...PREY on you like this, it's...it's...it's inhumane. MODERATOR: One of the things about, um...well, "good journalism"...I guess we can make a distinction...is that in "good journalism" sometimes, uh...often times, good reporting on a crime can help solve a crime. Uh - PATSY RAMSEY: -That's right!- JOHN RAMSEY: - You bet! In fact, the best investigative work in this case has been done by journalists. PATSY RAMSEY: -Um hmm. Absolutely. JOHN RAMSEY: We've got some incredibly good information from journalists, who, on their own, have dug into things that, uh...have been very, very interesting.... MODERATOR: Another question from our students. Tell us who you are - STUDENT QUESTIONER #2: Hi. Sean (redacted), from College Park. Thanks a lot for coming. Um...my question is: over the course of this ordeal, the media kinda sized up your decision to hire separate legal counsel...do you think that their interpretation played a role in - JOHN RAMSEY: -Sure. It played a role...i-i-i-i-i-in how people perceived us. It played a role in how the police perceived us. Let me correct one thing: we didn't make that decision. We were, uh...basically immobile. I mean, Patsy and I were devastated. Uh...a good friend of ours, who is an attorney, who'd been a former Prosecuting Attorney, uh...took me aside and said, "John, would you allow me to do some things I think are necessary to do here?" And I said, "Yeah." Cause he was a trusted friend. Uh, he brought in attorneys on our behalf. And we said, "Hey, why do we need attorneys? B: Why do we need 2 attorneys?" And they said, "This is how we need to do it. And it's prudent." And I trusted him. Uh, clearly it was the right thing to do...um, unfortunately our justice system is flawed. In some cases, and is not, uh...pure as we would hope it would be. And, um...his position for us was: if you're dealing with a...system that is not perfect...you absolutely need to be represented. And, um...I think it was absolutely the correct decision. It was an incorrect decision in terms of how the police and the public perceived us. The police, automatically: "You get an attorney; you're guilty." That's how they look at it. And I think the public, to a large degree, does too. And, um...y-y-you know, I've often thought: "Well, gee...what if we hadn't...what if we had just said 'No'?" You know, "We don't need attorneys...why do we need attorneys?" Cause that was certainly the thought that was going through our mind. Um, what...what difference would that have made? And, uh...you know, we might have been in jail today...I don't know. Uh, because the system, the justice system...was out to get us. Clear and simple. That, that became evident...downstream...as we begin to understand that...uh, they really were...focused on the family, because...it's always the parents. PATSY RAMSEY: I have a new appreciation for attorneys...I don't tell those "lawyer jokes" anymore...because they know so much about the justice system. Um...I remember when it...you know, rumors were flying all the time that I was going to be arrested...and thrown in jail...and I said: "LET THEM! Let them throw me in jail! I will be sittin' there, and that'll just give me more fuel for the furnace...you know, when I'm throwin' out lawsuits, you know. And my attorney said, "You don't understand." He said, "Without exception, every one of my clients who has been put in a jail cell...you know, months later another inmate will be put in the same jail cell...you know...chit-chatting...whatnot...a few minutes later, the inmate goes out and says, 'She confessed!'" And, I was just...I was just STUNNED! This can't be happening. In this country. And he said, "Believe me, it happens." He said, "If you, you know, are behind bars, you will not be alone for one second. They'll have somebody there, sitting with you, at all times..." Because, he said, "It happens. It happens every time." JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, our attorneys were very, very afraid of the justice system, 'cause they knew it was flawed. And, um...that was a wake-up call for us, I think. And...and...and one of the things we wanna make a difference in, uh...is that whole process. I mean we've got inexperienced police, in general, and I mean this is not a categorical statement...uh, who are too eager to make an arrest. We've got prosecutors who are paid to prosecute. And, we've got politicians who garner votes based on being "tough on crime." And, um, it's dangerous. It sounds good to us law-abiding citizens, but it's a dangerous...uh, uh...edge that we're kinda walking on. And I'm convinced that there are thousands of innocent people in jails today. Every day, when you pick up the paper.... But, that's what we were faced with. And, our friend who was experienced...had been on the prosecuting side, and the defense side, saw it...and we didn't. And that's how attorneys first got involved. But did they...did that bias things? Absolutely. STUDENT QUESTIONER #2: Great. Thank you very much. MODERATOR: Jill? STUDENT QUESTIONER #3: My name is Jill (redacted), I'm also a journalism student at the University of Maryland. What did the media expose that you felt should have been kept private? And, what hasn't been told that you think should have been? PATSY RAMSEY: Well, gosh...you know (laughs)...my mother always said, "Watch your reputation!" You know, "Don't go in that bar, don't do this...don't do that..." You know, "What - you gotta -Watch your reputation." I have thanked her about a gazillion times. Because they absolutely have...you know...SCOURED our backgrounds...and they said, you know, we'd be perfect political candidates now because, you know, everything's out in the open. All the skeletons, all the - JOHN RAMSEY: - lots of skeletons that weren't there - PATSY RAMSEY: (Loudly) Hee-hee! Yeah! Right! But, just...I mean...they went back and found my High School English teacher! Uh...old boyfriends...you know, I'm embarrassed because those people were bothered...because of me...you know... JOHN RAMSEY: I think the big issue is, i-i-if we're looking at what, whatta we need to worry about as a society, is that was reflected on our case, is there's a...there's a too much of a intermingling of the justice system and the media. Uh...you know...in some countries; England, for example...most English-based-law countries, the things that went on in our case would have put journalists and police in jail. In England you're not allowed...it's called...oh, it's a Latin term, I forget it...but you're not allowed to report on evidence and...uh...uh... PATSY RAMSEY: - in an ongoing case - JOHN RAMSEY: - the process of an ongoing case, because it biases the case...one way or the other. It's not true in our country...and, in fact, it's gotten...I...my believe...is that one of the things we need to look at as a society is that this is a problem. Where...uh, a television program can try, as we were tried, on television...it, uh...it...you gotta realize we've never, ever...yet, heh (laugh)...been named as a suspect. That's really the first step in...in a...in a...process for the police...they name you as a suspect. Then you're indicted, it takes a little bit of evidence to indict, it takes a ton of evidence to convict. We've never even been named as a suspect...in the media we've been tried, convicted...charged, tried, convicted, and...uh...it's over. And, and that's a problem for our system, because the justice system can't work properly with that going on around it. A detective told me that...an old, retired, very experienced detective...he said the problem with this case was so much media attention, th-th-that the detectives weren't allowed to do their job. And they do their job kinda of in the background. They...uh-h-h...pick here...they look here...you know, it's a...it's a complex thing to solve this kind of crime. Very complex. Takes a lot of gray matter. It takes a lot of time. Well, when the media gets involved in demanding an answer for the 6 o'clock news, uh...the Chief gets involved. And he micro-manages. Well, the Chief hasn't been in a crime investigation, maybe ever, as it was in the case in Boulder...uh...certainly for a long time, because he's been an administrator...the Chief of Detectives gets involved. And, the poor detective, uh...can't do his job. So, that...in the very beginning, with that kind of attention and pressure...uh, the justice system, the investigative process, can't operate. Doesn't work. And, that's a problem. And, uh...it's a...I'm not sure how you fix it. But...you know, in terms...so, there's issues of just the privacy of the investigation that needs to be somehow protected, so that the process can work. And, that may take years. And, that's a flaw, and that's something that...that...to specifically address your question...uh, should not have been exposed...uh...the police used the media...they played the media like a fiddle in this case...they leaked innuendos.... Their strategy basically was to put immense pressure on us so that we'd break. And...in fact, they wanted to throw one of us in...I guess both of us...in jail. And they figured, well...one of us would crack...and turn on the other...they weren't sure which one, but the two of us were in the house...it had to be one or the other. And, my fundamental criticism of the media, as I really analyze this from 30,000 feet, is that they...uh, they took these leaks, and innuendos, and basically gossip as fact, and ran with it. And they ran with it world-wide. Rather than being skeptical of the police. The police as a gov-, ...you know, the justice system is a government organization. And hence, should be looked at with some degree of skepticism, and, uh...and, uh...suspicion. I mean that's...that's...to me...and I don't know if this is what you teach in school, but...to me the...and I've thought a lot about this, but the main responsibility of a free press in a democracy is to keep the government honest. And, uh...we seem to not realize that the justice system is the government. I mean, we're seeing cases not with, you know...Wen Ho Lee, and, you know, there's...there's...I'm sensitive to it because I look for it in the papers, and it's always there. Where, uh...that role has been grossly overstepped. And, uh...but, um...the-the willingness to...uh...convict...you know...not only before trial, but before anyone's ever been charged, is a huge...error...that was illustrated in our case. And that's a...that's a violation...not of our privacy...well, it is, I guess in a lot of respects. Um...because we were the victims. But, it destroys the system that we, that we put in place to deal with these kinds of things. STUDENT QUESTIONER #3: For the second part of that question: was there anything that you feel should have been exposed, but wasn't...should have been told, by the media, that wasn't? JOHN RAMSEY: (To Patsy) Any thoughts? PATSY RAMSEY: Well...um, there again I think...um, a lot of press has been guilty of just taking...you know, by spoonfuls, information that the police department wanted them to have. So...and, very little investigative reporting was done. I mean, just this summer, just in the past few weeks, we learned that there was another young girl assaulted, in her bed...by a perpetrator...who had been in the house for at least four hours...this happened in... JOHN RAMSEY: September. PATSY RAMSEY: September of 1997. And, the Special Prosecutor for the Grand Jury...he did not know about this...I mean, it was kept...you know...quiet! - JOHN RAMSEY: - that was an example of good journalism, in my opinion! I mean...and these...the guys that dug this out, and ultimately reported on it, had been some of our harshest - PATSY RAMSEY: - Journalists! JOHN RAMSEY: - critics, but they were journalists...and they, basically, uh...called the police...uh, on this, and said, "Wait a minute. This...why haven't you looked at this?" END OF PART ONE OF TWO PARTS [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "Just wanted to highlight one thing in part one:" Posted by Dunvegan on 14:16:00 3/24/2001 JOHN RAMSEY: "....The police as a gov-, ...you know, the justice system is a government organization. And hence, should be looked at with some degree of skepticism, and, uh...and, uh...suspicion." [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 8. "Gad!" Posted by JR on 16:07:29 3/24/2001 Uh...Uh...Uh... This is an executive speaking? Wonder if JR ever heard of Toastmasters? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "Oh Dun!" Posted by Edie Pratt on 14:15:33 3/24/2001 you old pirate, you never cease to amaze and amuse me:-) I'm all eyes... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "Holy Batman" Posted by Watching you on 14:22:58 3/24/2001 that AND HENCE leaped right off the page at me. Dunvegan, , it's not easy typing off a tape. Thanks for doing this. And hence. My Lawd, how many people use "and hence" in everyday language? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "isn't "and hence" redundant?" Posted by Edie Pratt on 14:34:52 3/24/2001 thanks, Dun, this is very enlightening. STILL no rage at the killer, lol. Unless, they think the media killed her? JR dictated that note, IMO, starting with "Mr Ramsey, listen carefully!" It's always about poor JR and what the "world" does to him. The only time it's "we", is when the answer is he. He's speaking for himself when it comes to the media, he feels he's justified in being outraged. But, when a question is put to him on anything to do with JB, he hauls in his "chaperone", the collective WE. Good going Dun! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "Hang on, Edie...it gets..." Posted by Dunvegan on 14:42:41 3/24/2001 ...MUCH better... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "Dunvegan to the rescue!" Posted by Sabrina on 14:48:37 3/24/2001 You know, I recall there were some interesting things said in that interview. Thanks for transcribing it. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "oh dear" Posted by v_p on 16:54:24 3/24/2001 >>I'm embarrassed because those people were bothered...because of me...you know...<< Wasn't because of you you self-absorbed bit*h, it was a murder investigation...member the "child." Dun, thanks. I never received my tape. The "and hence" jumped out at me too. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. "Dunvegan Does It Again!!" Posted by sarah on 17:36:58 3/24/2001 Dunvegan, thank you mucho. I love to read these two incriminate themselves over and over again. Is anyone still doubting Johnnieboy didn't have a hand in the RN? The "and hence" passage from Johnnieboy is yet another figure of speech indigenous to the Ramseys that we all know too well is found in their Ramsom note. I will insert your find into the ransom note comparison page at the sarah site http://sarahshome2001.homestead.com/RNunmasked.html even though the page is overloaded as it is, lol. They have totally forgotten about JonBenet again - you know, "that child" who was brutally murdered. They make me ill with their incessant whining about themselves being victims: (From your transcript:) " Um...because we were the victims. ". John Ramsey ..Alas, we will continue to track them like the dogs they are, since, as he has on more than one occasion confessed .. (From your transcript) " '..uh, they really were...focused on the family, because...it's always the parents." John Ramsey Again, thank you.. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 11. "very, very interesting..." Posted by Edie Pratt on 17:51:44 3/24/2001 on the benefits of reporting on crime JR says, "You bet! In fact, the best investigative work in this case has been done by journalists." Patsy says, "um hmmm. Absolutely." JR continues, "WE'VE got some incredibly good information from journalists, who on their own, have dug into things that, uh, have been very, very interesting..." Oh really? What "journalists" were those, pray tell? Very interesting indeed, bet they were paid "quite handsomely", too. Does he just make it up as he goes, or what? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "Good find" Posted by docg on 21:08:18 3/24/2001 Dunvegan. Here's another: "And, a friend of ours, came up with an analogy that I thought was perfect: he said it was like you're the red fox, and you're being pursued by the dogs, in an English hunt...and the dogs are the tabloid...uh, media. And the more proper hunters, on the horseback, are the mainstream media." John just loves that word "proper." As in "proper burial." Also "properly." But what are we thinking! He's been "ruled out" hasn't he? By the "experts"? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. "And hence...the government" Posted by Ginja on 19:21:46 3/24/2001 What is wrong with Boulder that they can't link all this together to make a case against these people? In the business world, in the legal world/courts, in everyday speech, in newspapers, or on television....when have you ever ever heard or read "...and hence"? It's not used. Anywhere. Except when John Ramsey speaks, or Patsy Ramsey writes.... It doesn't take a rocket scientist to clearly see the connection between these people and the ransom note! Note, too, that Ramsey talks alot about the government. And as he sees it, everything "official" is the government...police, courts. He's even figured out that its the media's responsibility to protect citizens from the government and subsequent abuses. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to clearly see the connection between this obsession with "government" and that small foreign faction that threatens the Ramseys! I just don't understand what's wrong in Boulder! And evidently, this is not a Hunter problem. It appears his successor can't see these connections either! Thanks Dunvegan for transcribing the tape. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 12. "Hi Edie :) And Here's Another one" Posted by sarah on 19:19:03 3/24/2001 Over at CN2, we have been posting a thread wondering, if the police had treated the Scammers like your usual suspects and interrogated them quickly and separately (no bs allowed), what would have happened. So it was ironic to read John's own statement on this question..from Dunvegan's transcript: Talking about the police, John says: "Their strategy basically was to put immense pressure on us so that we'd break. And...in fact, they wanted to throw one of us in...I guess both of us...in jail. And they figured, well...one of us would crack...and turn on the other...they weren't sure which one, but the two of us were in the house...it had to be one or the other. " Jr ..This kinda hammers it home for me one more time..Apparently, Johnnieboy was ALSO more than well aware of "police countermeasures and tactics", it seems, and that's proof positive from HIS OWN STUPID MOUTH why he lawyered up so quickly.. Because as we know, the police never 'threw them in jail' and he and the Phatso avoided police contact like the plague.. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 14. "Hi, Sarah!" Posted by Edie Pratt on 19:29:36 3/24/2001 and good catch, lol! One of his "tactics and countermeasures" was to foul up Det. Arndt's tactics and countermeasures, wasn't it? She says stay put, he get's up and goes. She says don't touch anything, he paws the first corpse he sees. And the one glaring reality, besides your noting they avoided the cops like the plague, is how they avoided EACHOTHER like the plague, too. Seems campus couple #1 did everything in their power to be surrounded by everyone and anyone that could stand to be with them. Why, they went so far as to invite themselves to live with people they considered mere acquaintances. But funny thing, when they went on CNN the DAY AFTER JB'S FUNERAL, John said "we've been sooo isolated". Huh? There were people on top of people around them up to that point, how isolated could they have been? You're so right, Sarah, JR does have a BIG STUPID MOUTH, lol. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "Also" Posted by momo on 21:55:45 3/24/2001 John talks about the country right off the bat. "Country" was a word mentioned in the RN. Also, he mentioned dogs. Stray "dog" was in the RN. All I can say is keep on talking John and Patsy. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 17. "Ginja" Posted by sarah on 07:09:10 3/25/2001 I know your frustration - I feel it too, just like you do, except you can see all the legal stuff I don't know or understand. A mental tally at all the circumstantial evidence (or otherwise) we know exists out there, especially in the RN, evidence of prior abuse, and all their many lies and slip-ups, can cause many a JFJBRer to slam the table with a balled up fist. And yet, the Boulder police continue to do nothing; mute, like a bunch of monkeys- See nothing, Hear nothing, Say nothing. What makes it all so really s-p-e-c-i-a-l is that JonBenet was murdered in her own home! At night, with only 3 people in the house. If the BPD can't, won't, and continues to refuse to move on this murder, then by their own lack of action they should be put up as a laughing-stock for all police forces all over the globe. It is the BPD and the Da.s who should be going after these two Scammers; it's their job and their duty. We've done all we can to help them, yet they remain behind their desks immobile and unmoving. 'Scuse me, I've got to go find a table to pound.. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 19. "Wonder....." Posted by rose on 10:53:33 3/25/2001 Have the police even tried to find any business letters with the and Hence wording that went out written by John before the murder. I have always thought John dictated the RN and Patsy wrote it. When i helped my daughter's company catch up with some filing, there were business letters from customers in all their files that went back several years. At least the police could inquire of some of Johns customers and see if they have correspondence from him filed away. Circumstanial evidence showing this (and Hence) wording was particular to John would go a long way. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "I can't help it" Posted by janphi on 10:41:47 3/25/2001 These people just make me see red (foxes)! COMMENTS: Patsy: We've been fictionalized as people that we're not...so, I want them to understand that in the years to come, when you are reporting about individuals that they are people. They are human beings. They have feelings, theys have, you know, rights to privacy...and just because you are a journalist, does not give you carte blanche to, you know, drag them through the mud, basically. [Conveniently leaving out the fact that she is under suspicion of the murder of her daughter and that she and JR invited the media to scrutinize them.] John: And, um...we just felt...violated...that...we didn't want our picture taken, we didn't want that, uh...you know, that attention. [Except when we're able to extract some pity or get some attention drawn from something negative going on towards us. What WERE those big box things on poles with little wheels on them and a red light glowing? Oh, TV cameras? They have those in the CNN studios? Huh, didn't know that!] John: And there's a lot of freelance photographers that that's how they make a living, they get a picture, and if it's a good one, they can sell it, make several thousand dollars, and they sell it to the tabloids. [God forbid that someone else should be allowed to make a living besides millionaire workstation hucksters.] John: eventually, after we saw the picture of my older son at the cemetery in one of the tabloid pictures, uh - newspapers. [Is this the tabloid newspapers you say you don't look at or read?] John: "the poor little fox ". We had to, uh...had to plan where we, uh...where we could find our points of refuge. [Which didn't include the Boulder police station.] John: The, uh...you know, we developed a...uh...I'd call it a hatred for the media, based on our experience at the beginning. And we...and as we...overtime begin to meet, what I call the "legitimate journalists" and, uh...people that are...uh, at the top of the profession, we begin to realize, "Well, these people are decent people. They're smart, they're trying to do a good job. [They have as much money as we do..maybe more.] John: it would make us angry when things were reported that weren't true [Even madder when they WERE] John: We took television out of our home a couple years ago.... [That's not really one that you see in photos of the living room of our Atlanta home. It's one of those dummy fake ones from a model home.] John: To some degree, we don't know...because we haven't...we don't follow it. We don't, uh...read all the stories. [Patsy just pastes 'em in the scrapbook without looking at them.] John: But, uh...(pause)...the, um...I've told by...um, friends of ours who did follow it, um, that the Washington Post did a pretty good job of accuracy, and staying out of the mud. But that's second-hand information. Uh, 'cause I didn't...I didn't follow it. [Now that it's all over with, ya know.] PATSY RAMSEY: -Follow up on that...and, be sure to check it out...cause you can't just take his words for it (!) (Laughter from audience, moderators, John.) That's the best...ha, ha! - [You know how John lies!] Patsy: You know, we had just lost our child...we weren't concerned with helping portray anything. [Except our fake kidnapping story.] Patsy: Um, I get criticized for not having...we both do...for not having "acted right." You know...I (sigh) I spent weeks and weeks and weeks in bed. Immobile. You know: crying. [So, who's criticizing you for laying in bed and crying? People who know you didn't? "You can take MY word for it. I'm not lying, only John does."] Patsy: So...you know...no, we weren't out there giving a response...because we were, you know...back there crying our eyes out. ["Back there" meaning behind the stage curtain, the smoke screen?] Patsy: So, um...I don't feel obligated, nor did I then, to have to provide information about... [That's obvious] Patsy: ...you know...to try to get people to...to paint a picture of myself...or something - [Way to change the subject] Patsy: We - there was a murderer in our home. [Got the John pronoun disease here, P?] JOHN RAMSEY: - You bet! In fact, the best investigative work in this case has been done by journalists. PATSY RAMSEY: -Um hmm. Absolutely. [But, you SAID they shouldn't be allowed to do their jobs!] John: [about attorneys] Let me correct one thing: we didn't make that decision [Someone forged our signatures to those documents. We'll be suing later.] John: [asked Bynum] Why do we need 2 attorneys?" And they said, "This is how we need to do it. And it's prudent." And I trusted him. [Two previous answers: "That's just what you have to do." and my favorite, "One lawyer can't represent two people." Oh yeah, when they're just the victim's two parents? Show me that rule.] John: And, uh...you know, we might have been in jail today...I don't know. [And the problem with this is...?] John: Uh, because the system, the justice system...was out to get us. Clear and simple. [Uh huh, the SAME "system" that made you a millionaire? The "guvmint"?] Patsy: I have a new appreciation for attorneys...I don't tell those "lawyer jokes" anymore... [Yeah, right] Patsy: Let them throw me in jail! I will be sittin' there, and that'll just give me more fuel for the furnace...you know, when I'm throwin' out lawsuits, you know. [Ooooohhh, Big Bad Patsy scared those coppers off, didn't ya?] PATSY: And my attorney said, "You don't understand." He said, "Without exception, every one of my clients who has been put in a jail cell...you know, months later another inmate will be put in the same jail cell...you know...chit-chatting...whatnot...a few minutes later, the inmate goes out and says, 'She confessed!'" [My personal favorite--her reasoning behind lying to keep herself out of jail. You just never know what your roommate might SAY ABOUT you!] John: JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah, our attorneys were very, very afraid of the justice system, 'cause they knew it was flawed. And, um...that was a wake-up call for us, I think. And...and...and one of the things we wanna make a difference in, uh...is that whole process. [As in "stopping it cold" with stonewalling and lies?] John: And I'm convinced that there are thousands of innocent people in jails today. Every day, when you pick up the paper.... [Convinced by your attorney, you mean, not by the newspapers. What are the statistics? Less than 1/100th of 1%?] Patsy; Well, gosh...you know (laughs)...my mother always said, "Watch your reputation!" [Keep up a front, lie about everything, so they never find out the truth! Appearances are everything!] Patsy: they went back and found my High School English teacher! Uh...old boyfriends...you know, I'm embarrassed because those people were bothered...because of me...you know... [Because of me, because I won't tell the cops the truth. Gosh!] John: Uh...you know...in some countries; England, for example...most English-based-law countries, the things that went on in our case would have put journalists and police in jail. [But you first, John.] John: In England you're not allowed...it's called...oh, it's a Latin term, I forget it...but you're not allowed to report on evidence ... [Oh, was it EVIDENCE that made you look guilty, John?] John: We've never even been named as a suspect [Well, John, that's because "a" suspect would be ONE person; "we" indicates "two or more" suspects. Still can't get that right, can you?] John: A detective told me that...an old, retired, very experienced detective...he said the problem with this case was so much media attention, th-th-that the detectives weren't allowed to do their job. [Then, LooseMitt blamed it on you going on CNN?] John: So, that...in the very beginning, with that kind of [media] attention and pressure...uh, the justice system, the investigative process, can't operate. Doesn't work. [So, everything went according to your plan, did it, John?] John: the police used the media...they played the media like a fiddle in this case...they leaked innuendos.... [Not NEARLY AS MANY as you two have, John. Not NEARLY AS MANY.] John: but the two of us were in the house...it had to be one or the other. [Yup] John: The police as a gov-, ...you know, the justice system is a government organization. And hence, should be looked at with some degree of skepticism, and, uh...and, uh...suspicion. [Using "suspicion" in the same sentence with "and hence"? Just doesn't get any better than this, JR!] John: the main responsibility of a free press in a democracy is to keep the government honest. And, uh...we seem to not realize that the justice system is the government. I mean, we're seeing cases not with, you know...Wen Ho Lee, and, you know, there's...there's...I'm sensitive to it because I look for it in the papers, and it's always there. [Would that be the papers you don't buy or read, John? How do you "look for" things then? And, uh, um, um, why Wen Ho Lee?] John: that's a violation...not of our privacy...well, it is, I guess in a lot of respects. Um...because we were the victims. [A position we just love to be in] John: But, it destroys the system that we, that we put in place to deal with these kinds of things. [OUR system--OUR lawyering up system. Destroys it, if you all can find out we're lying.] Patsy: I mean, just this summer, just in the past few weeks, we learned that there was another young girl assaulted, in her bed...by a perpetrator...who had been in the house for at least four hours...this happened in... JOHN RAMSEY: September. PATSY RAMSEY: September of 1997. And, the Special Prosecutor for the Grand Jury...he did not know about this...I mean, it was kept...you know...quiet! - [Ah, so the media only "exposes" YOUR bad stuff and leaves innocent people alone, huh? Oh, that's so unfair!] John: they, basically, uh...called the police...uh, on this, and said, "Wait a minute. This...why haven't you looked at this?" [Well, because John & Patsy told us NOT TO!] [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 25. "Um..." Posted by JR on 19:52:49 3/25/2001 Paster, my heart goes pitty-pat over the fact that you didn't care to portray yourself to those people - so what was the interview on National T.V. about 4 days after your child's murder? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 20. "What a trooper!" Posted by Anton on 12:12:19 3/25/2001 Dunvegan, I pity your poor ears. You've done a terrific job with this transcription. I tried to transcribe while listening to it live and kept missing entire Q & A's because I'd gag on what I was hearing. Running it back and forth over and over to transcribe from a tape is a martyr's challenge. I, too, ordered the tape but I never received it nor a reply to my email. The "and hence" comment really sticks out, doesn't it? I came across another published use of "and hence" recently: Michael Crichton Disclosure, 1993 pp. 27 - 28, paperback [Describing a corporate lawyer; Garvin is the CEO of the corporation.] "Blackburn could be charismatic in his speeches, and in private could convey a convincing impression of intellectual honesty for short periods. But within the company he was seen for what he was: a gun for hire, a man with no convictions, and hence the perfect man to be Garvin's executioner." In light of the Ramsey case, that is an ironic use of the phrase, isn't it? Anton [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 24. "Wasn't Disclosure" Posted by janphi on 15:32:35 3/25/2001 the one with the cell phone that didn't hang up and the friend's answering machine picked up the come-on happening in the office? I always think of that with the 911 call and Burke's voice. Hope that's the same book--think it is. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 21. "A Goldmine, Dunvegan." Posted by listener on 13:07:16 3/25/2001 Hope your back isn't killing you from transcribing all that. It's such a tense job if you're not use to it. THANKS a million zillion! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 22. "Thank you, Listener..." Posted by Dunvegan on 13:39:50 3/25/2001 NOTE: This message was last edited 13:39:50, 3/25/2001 ...you're so very right: all that intense listening and straining to hear and transcribe correctly, gets you right in the coccyx! Happy to say I'm finished. Edited to say: Anton...Isn't John a fan of novels like the type Crichton writes? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 23. "Incredible" Posted by Starling on 14:25:17 3/25/2001 I can't believe he actually said "and hence." Yes I can.Lol Star [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 26. "Yeppers" Posted by Anton on 20:13:01 3/25/2001 Disclosure is a typical Crichton techno-fiction book based on a true situation. It was made into a movie starring Demi Moore and Michael Douglas (not John Douglas, LOL). Anyway, it is about a sexual-harrassment case involving managers in a high-tech Seattle company. A manager's former girlfriend is made his boss 10 years later and she lures him into a compromising situation. During that situation, the man made a cell phone call, then put the phone down without disconnecting. He had reached an answering machine and the entire compromising situation was literally caught on tape. Oops. I found it odd that a very picky writer such as Crichton would let a grammar slip pass. I didn't read this book until recently but even had I read it when it was published (1993), the phrase would have raised my eyebrow. I read extensively and, in my memory, this is the only published use of the phrase that I've seen. Anton [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ]