Justice Watch Discussion Board "Suspicious stuff not adding up" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... Suspicious stuff not adding up, Ryder, 23:22:19, 5/15/2000 Somehow - the name of your thread, lee2, 00:04:37, 5/16/2000, (#1) Ryder, Gemini, 00:10:45, 5/16/2000, (#2) Doesn't add up, sabrina, 06:34:44, 5/16/2000, (#3) hinky things, paddles, 06:54:54, 5/16/2000, (#4) Paddles, Greenleaf, 07:21:23, 5/16/2000, (#5) Screaming....., rose, 08:45:10, 5/16/2000, (#6) Ryder--most of what you said, fiddler, 09:52:42, 5/16/2000, (#8) fiddler, Ryder, 17:32:07, 5/16/2000, (#21) paddles, Sioux, 09:54:52, 5/16/2000, (#9) Sabrina, Sioux, 09:48:46, 5/16/2000, (#7) Not only that,, Seashell, 10:47:57, 5/16/2000, (#10) Rose, Gemini, 12:13:50, 5/16/2000, (#11) Why in the world, lee2, 15:55:13, 5/16/2000, (#16) Lee2,that's the $64 question, Edie Pratt, 16:08:34, 5/16/2000, (#17) Gemini--interesting post--, fiddler, 12:37:58, 5/16/2000, (#12) "small foreign faction"?, Edie Pratt, 12:46:44, 5/16/2000, (#13) When I read the description, gaiabetsy, 13:49:31, 5/16/2000, (#14) Stun gun...., rose, 15:43:20, 5/16/2000, (#15) One Thing..., 7kluz, 17:09:36, 5/16/2000, (#19) rose, Greenleaf, 17:08:00, 5/16/2000, (#18) stun gun size, sabrina, 17:29:00, 5/16/2000, (#20) Stun Gun, etc., Gemini, 18:05:53, 5/16/2000, (#22) Gem--there aren't, fiddler, 18:43:59, 5/16/2000, (#25) Zoomama, Fiddler, frankg, 19:11:08, 5/16/2000, (#26) Theory #2, Gemini, 18:42:38, 5/16/2000, (#24) Ryder or anyone, zoomama, 18:23:52, 5/16/2000, (#23) Thanks Fiddler and FrankG, Gemini, 19:26:54, 5/16/2000, (#27) ................................................................... "Suspicious stuff not adding up" Posted by Ryder on 23:22:19 5/15/2000 The title of this thread makes me laugh because not much adds up in this mess, but anyway... I'd still like help with some things and the title of the thread proposed is the best way I can describe it. In PMPT, it is mentioned that when Scheck, Lee & others went through the Ramsey home, they traced the possible paths followed by the intruder from JB's room (with JB) to the basement. I had somehow imagined that the basement stairs were in the near vicinity of the spiral staircase. (Orsen or Anton you could do a Nancy Drew satire on "The Mystery of the Spiral Staircas") In fact, when one gets to the first floor through the spiral staircase, one will come across 2 exits out of the house prior to finding one's way to the basement. In addition to this, it has been stated that the door opens in a strange way, the light switch is hard to find etc. In other words, the kidnapper (who would not have yet garroted JB since the paint brush was in the cellar) is already going out of his way to hit the basement. Why? If this is a kidnapping gone wrong (i.e. the child was killed), there is no reason for him to be heading for this out-of-the-way basement with a still-living child. #2 BTW, since everyone seems to feel that the location of the light switch is important - one gathers that all assume that the intruder would have turned on the light to the basement. Isn't this a risky move for an intruder? Managing JB + a flashlight, through a house where one does not (yet appear to) know where one is going, would be tricky. #3 Totally unrelated to the above. It is known that JB's lower body was washed down and it is suspected that she was changed. So this means that the intruder turned on some taps? Isn't this also a risky thing to do, if you are not supposed to be in that house? Presumably she is changed in the basement. So in addition to carrying JB, the flashlight, rope and tape (ransom note that hasn't been folded? + stun gun) has the intruder also picked up a change of clothing for JB prior to taking her downstairs or does he go back up to her bedroom to rummage through her drawers for this change of clothing? #4 When shown crime scene pictures, Patsy only notices 1 thing out of wack: the Santa bear. However, JR is reported (in PMPT) to find something strange about objects in every picture. This is bizarre too, isn't it. On the other hand, when shown the pineapple bowl, he claims that he's never seen it, whereas Patsy acknowledges that it belongs to the Ramsey household. This intruder thing gets weirder by the minute, but I think that we have to exhaust this possibility to get ahead. Finally, in PMPT it says that the police actually calculated the time that it would take to go through all of the intruder actions. Here on JW I read that some of you worked this out too. What was your result? How much time did you estimate for all this intruder action? [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "Somehow - the name of your thread" Posted by lee2 on 00:04:37 5/16/2000 gave me the visual of Steve Thomas singing "Suspicious Minds" to Alex Hunter after turning in his resignation. Maybe Orsen has just left me in a top forty mood . . . [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "Ryder" Posted by Gemini on 00:22:40 5/16/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 00:22:40, 5/16/2000 I'm awake again, thanks to an allergy attack, so I'll attempt to give you my POV about your very good wonderings, since I see two good possibilities toward finding the truth about this case, and one of those includes someone other than the parents ... an intruder, but not a stranger-intruder. I just took meds so have abt. 25 minutes before I'm outta here. #1 (the route and why the basement) My best guess is that JB took herself to the basement. Whether she was hit by a low volt stun gun or just taken from the bed asleep, there's an excellent possibility she roused and got away from her assailant near the back door ... especially if she was being carried, wrapped in the blanket. It's very difficult to carry a wriggling child within a loose cover. IF the perp was blocking the way back through to the stairs, she'd have had 3 choices: a) the den, which was a dead-end, b) the cold, dark out of doors (she was barefoot, light clothes), or c) the basement, which was a familiar part of the house to her. I think she'd have chosen the basement, thinking she knew a good place to hide. #2 BTW, since everyone seems to feel that the location of the light switch is important - one gathers that all assume that the intruder would have turned on the light to the basement. Isn't this a risky move for an intruder? Managing JB + a flashlight, through a house where one does not (yet appear to) know where one is going, would be tricky. Most of the better intruder theories factor in the clear possibility the perp entered the home in the early evening house and hid (probably in the basement) until the household had retired. If so, it would not have been necessary for him/her to spend hours checking out the layout. A quick re-con would have revealed light swithes, the location of each bedroom, etc.. However, since I think an intruder would not have been a stranger to the home, it may not have been necessary to seek'n'find. Further, I doubt the main basement light would have been turned on, but perhaps only the light in the little, windowless room where she was found. #3 Totally unrelated to the above. It is known that JB's lower body was washed down and it is suspected that she was changed. So this means that the intruder turned on some taps? Isn't this also a risky thing to do, if you are not supposed to be in that house? Presumably she is changed in the basement. So in addition to carrying JB, the flashlight, rope and tape (ransom note that hasn't been folded? + stun gun) has the intruder also picked up a change of clothing for JB prior to taking her downstairs or does he go back up to her bedroom to rummage through her drawers for this change of clothing? I believe it would be more accurate to say it is known she was wiped off. The washed down reports came from the tabs I think ... not reliable sources. I'm also very wary of the report than her clothes were changed. Since quite a few people knew what she was wearing at the Whites' dinner, it would be futile to claim the white shirt was worn if it was actually the red turtleneck. Therefore, I believe she was found in the same top she wore to the Whites ... and for the sake of an intruder theory, the same clothing she wore when she was put to bed. When it comes to the things you're wondering about in this one (#3), it is very important to pin down the sources and consider their credibility. #4 When shown crime scene pictures, Patsy only notices 1 thing out of wack: the Santa bear. However, JR is reported (in PMPT) to find something strange about objects in every picture. This is bizarre too, isn't it. On the other hand, when shown the pineapple bowl, he claims that he's never seen it, whereas Patsy acknowledges that it belongs to the Ramsey household. Personally, I think many of the things some people call "lies" in re. the Ramseys' statements and comments, have to be considered in connection to the emotional distress that could have caused foggy thinking. I have an acquaintance in law inforcement who swears inconsistancies from people closely affected by violent crime are very common. He says it's lack of inconsistancies that should arouse suspicion ... as in, testimony by rote. That makes sense to me. OK ... LOL! Times up, I'm getting drowsy again (feel like a furby that's been ignored ... winding d_o_w_n :-) ). Hope the feedback helps give you some things to consider. GEM (edited to correct an error ; ) ) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "Doesn't add up" Posted by sabrina on 06:34:44 5/16/2000 The reason why this doesn't add up is : THERE WAS NO INTRUDER! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "hinky things" Posted by paddles on 06:54:54 5/16/2000 I have two new thoughts: After reading several of "the books" I keep wondering more and more about the "stonewalling" by the DA's office. It seems far more serious than basic laziness.It seems like a serious effort to keep the investigation from moving forward and smells real bad to me. I would like to see someone take a deep, close look at the decisionmakers in the DA's office. I know it sounds paranoid, but maybe they do not DARE carry this case forward for personal reasons of their own. Also, I was thinking about water usage the other day. I have no idea if municipal water company's computers keep records of water usage/times. Obviously they track usage in general, but is there some deep, deep computer program that also track time-of-day usage? Maybe authorities could figure out some of the timing of the crime by checking into this.Obviously there was some washing going on: sheets? body? flushing? Just a few random hinky thoughts... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "Paddles" Posted by Greenleaf on 07:21:23 5/16/2000 As to the stonewalling by the D.A., you wrote: "It seems far more serious than basic laziness." You got that right! When the truth is known (and it will be someday) the general population will be astonished at what went on in the DA's office and why. I believe that Alex is operating out of sheer fear. I believe that blackmail is involved. Alex is on a short leech and is being pulled by big money with no conscience. Alex is viewed by these people as a gnat; easily swatted down or blown away. He is buzzing around in dangerous territory; walking on egg shells and blabbling nonsensical legalisms; striving mightly to slip away unscathed. Us citizens are not fooled for long. Watch out, Alex, when we, the people, find our your connections, you might be sitting in the defendent's chair in the court house in Boulder. Greenleaf [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "Screaming....." Posted by rose on 08:45:10 5/16/2000 Gem, would not Jonbenet be screaming bloody murder if she escaped from someone who wrapped her in a blanket and was trying to carry her out of her home. If she was afraid enough and strong enough to struggle and try to get away, would not she also be screaming for her parents to come and help? Even if he caught up with her before she entered basement stairs and hit her a murderouse blow to the head, what intruder would stick around and risk that the parents would be coming down to investigate any moment? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 8. "Ryder--most of what you said" Posted by fiddler on 09:52:42 5/16/2000 makes little sense to me, either--the "intruder" theory has always seemed extremely far-fetched to me. Unless, of course, the "intruder" was actually a close friend or family member. (I've wondered if GPP were actually still in Boulder the entire holiday--maybe the reason there was no tape in the video camera for that Christmas was that he, or JAR(?) were on it? maybe he didn't go anywhere standby, and JR's attempt to get to Atlanta was really to get GPP out of town?) In that case, the parents might not have realized that the person was there at the moment, but the person's presence could easily be explained to them, Burke, or JBR. Still fairly unlikely, IMO, though. In the case of JR seeing strange stuff in every photo, he travelled on business all the time--many quotes about him being "hardly ever home." To be fair, this is a very plausible and innocent reason he might not have recognized quite a few things. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 21. "fiddler" Posted by Ryder on 17:32:07 5/16/2000 If I remember correctly, Douglas who was a consultant for the Ramseys also said that he did not believe that this intruder could have been a stranger to the Rs. I am not at all inclined to believe in ANY intruder theory, but I am interested in exploring it in order to verbalize or hear others verbalize why I don't buy it. Intruder theories are diverse, however, so there are many arguments to consider. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "paddles" Posted by Sioux on 09:54:52 5/16/2000 **It seems far more serious than basic laziness.It seems like a serious effort to keep the investigation from moving forward and smells real bad to me.** Yeah to me too. But you know what? BEFORE the ramsey case the DA's office was doing ok. Maybe it wasn't MY ideal of "doing good" or yours or Thomas', but it was THE COMMUNITY's ideal. Boulder was happy enough to have AH for ...? How many years?..... I think Boulder, with a few exception DESERVES Hunter.And if you don't think so, just take a look at the next political options that are out there to be voted. The really popular ones? The ones that follow the same line of action.Corrupt politicians are the CONSEQUENCE of corrupt societies, not viceversa. Sioux [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "Sabrina" Posted by Sioux on 09:48:46 5/16/2000 You are right, there was no intruder. My idea is: To charge the Ramseys .You only need to demonstrate that THERE WAS NO INTRUDER. Not that Patsy or John killed her, but thatthere was no one else that could have possibly done it. Then, if there was an intruder,(but not a stranger like Gemini says), the Rams will talk. Oh yes they'll talk. If you charge THEM and someone else did it you'll need to torture them to MAKE THEM SHUT UP. Sioux [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. "Not only that," Posted by Seashell on 10:47:57 5/16/2000 but it was dark when the Ramseys left for the Whites. Certainly no stranger came in. It would have taken several days in the dark just to find the light switch or the little room. And then there's falling over and knocking into all those Xmas trees! Can't you just see some crazed foreign faction with a tiny penlight getting all set up for the murder? "So much to do, so little time." LOL. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 11. "Rose" Posted by Gemini on 12:13:50 5/16/2000 Why didn't she scream? I started to add my thoughts about this, but wanted to finish up and log off, so left it ... feeling sure someone would bring it up. I honestly don't know the answer, though I can see a few possibles. If a stun gun was used, that could be an answer. I talked with a guy who knows (really KNOWS) about stun guns. He said the reaction and after effect is such an individual thing it's impossible to give an accurate scenario about a child's reactions. Obviously, they don't test these things on children. But, the less powerful type may have not rendered her unconscious very long, and (his guess) she'd have been somewhat disoriented coming out of it. I'm not totally convinced a stun gun was used. However, I do not buy the "weaving loom" idea, and a very knowledgeable 'expert' DID back up Smit's theory after seeing blow-ups of the marks, so that possibility can't be discounted so easily. If NO stun gun ... why didn't she scream? My guess is it may have had to do with her famiiliarity with the perp. As I mentioned, I certainly don't believe it was a stranger. At any rate, to whoever wondered why the perp would take the time to follow JB to the basement and risk the parents waking up ... I think (s)he had to BECAUSE, at that point, the child knew who she was dealing with ... and there could be NO explanation for what was going on. The scream, if there was a scream, must have come when he found her hiding place ... probably somewhere around the freezer in the little boiler room area. Obviously, this is guess work, but after all these months, it seems the most likely possibility ... to me. The next most likely would put PR as the source of the head blow, but would involve another adult (not JR) taking over with the cover-up. JMO, of course. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "Why in the world" Posted by lee2 on 15:55:13 5/16/2000 weren't the Stines called that morning? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 17. "Lee2,that's the $64 question" Posted by Edie Pratt on 16:08:34 5/16/2000 my take on it is the Stine's were not really friends of theirs. I think the Stine's are bores, and only became chummy when all their "real" friends stopped believing in them. I think, too, it only took a little flattery on the Ram's part and VOILA!, the Stine's are forever devoted. Susan Stine, in the CROCK, stated she was a skeptical person, one not easily fooled. By the time she got a good look at the Ram's, the tears were aflowin'. Patsy always cries when it comes to her own pain, and by then she was painfully aware she'd worn out her welcome with the cool circle. Who wouldn't cry if all they had left were the Stine's and a couple of kooks on the net?lol. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 12. "Gemini--interesting post--" Posted by fiddler on 12:37:58 5/16/2000 as I said above, I don't believe any "intruder" was a stranger, either. What's interesting to me about your post is that you're positing a scenario where killing JBR was not necessarily planned beforehand, but became necessary because of her active resistance, right? Resistance to kidnapping, or to sexual assault, or both? I've often wondered about that phrase "small foreign faction". The usual response is to consider it ridiculous and discount all of it. I wonder if the "foreign"--and the misdirection to look outside the family and friends--was the intent there. Maybe the small faction part was true. You've given me something new to think about, anyhow. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. ""small foreign faction"?" Posted by Edie Pratt on 12:46:44 5/16/2000 do you mean, "small foreign object", Fiddler? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 14. "When I read the description" Posted by gaiabetsy on 13:49:31 5/16/2000 of the body being wiped or washed, I get a strong impression of Patsy. What if you are Patsy and you get upset about yet another bedwetting (and you've been fairly abusive and violent before) so you lose your temper and grab your child by the collar and in effect practically strangle her to death. The end result develops into a murdered child who has urinated on herself - the very thing you got tired of tolerating. As one of the final acts of restitution, you wash her (the same way you have on so many nights) and wrap her up and put her favorite nightie beside her. I had a really strong impression about that. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "Stun gun...." Posted by rose on 15:43:20 5/16/2000 Does anyone know how big a stun gun is? We know the intruder theory has the person bringing in a stun gun, rope and tape. We are also told he carried them away with him when he left. Also, does anyone know anything about the parking regulations on the street and in the ally? Is the ally behind the homes used by the homeoweners to drive down and access their garages. Just how far would this intruder have to park away from house? Remember he would have to carry Jonbenet and his tool kit with him to his car. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 19. "One Thing..." Posted by 7kluz on 17:09:36 5/16/2000 that really bothers me is; if they wiped her down and changed her clothes, why were her panties and long underwear urine stained ? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "rose" Posted by Greenleaf on 17:08:00 5/16/2000 rose, dear, there was no stun gun; there was no tool kit; there was no car parked in the alley; there was no intruder. What there was: Parents who murdered their child. Parents who covered up the murder. Parents who continue to point their fingers at everything and everybody that moves. Parents who speak out of both sides of their mouths at once. Parents who have lied to the public, and continue to lie. Parents who pay officials to keep them out of jail. Parents who blast the media when it is not with them and who use the media to spread more lies. Parents who pay others to keep their little secrets, etc., etc. Greenleaf [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 20. "stun gun size" Posted by sabrina on 17:29:00 5/16/2000 A coworker of mine had a stun gun, we used to go to New York city on buying trips and she was followed into a MacDonalds ladies room in the theater distric by a man who tried to assult her and steal her purse. After that, she would not go to New York without her stun gun but she was afraid the airport security wouldn't let her through, so she had to leave the stun gun in New York (she was from FL) and have someone from our NY office bring it to her! The stun gun she had was about 4" by 3". She carried it in her purse. Good point about the parking, I wondered about that too. I recall someone saying you needed a permit to park on the street but maybe not on a holiday?? I think the "intruder" came by boat. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 22. "Stun Gun, etc." Posted by Gemini on 18:05:53 5/16/2000 Yes Sabrina, ours is about that size, too ... low voltage ... probably just enough to allow escape from an adult, bent on assault. But, I dare say, the effect would be much more pronounced on a small child. Something I've considered about parking possibilities is the info given long ago about neighborhood interviews. According to the BPD, some interviews had to be delayed because a number of people who lived nearby were out of town over the holidays. That translates to driveways along that alley that led to houses with no one home. Also, since White owned a rental on the same street, perhaps there were others ... perhaps some were vacant. My best guess would be parking in one of the driveways along the alley. In light of GL's usual little 'post of pique', I'd like to clear one thing up right now. I don't CARE who you believe dunnit. There are people whose opinions I respect on both sides of the fence, and (maybe especially) on the fence. The thing I don't respect are those who allow themselves to be dupes for others who would take over and try to tell us how to think or manipulate for the right to dictate POV. Maybe someone got into the house and did the deed, maybe not. But, given everything I know, sans rumor and speculation leaked to the public via the media, I find this possibility most likely. A foreign faction? Naaah. A wandering pedophile? I don't think so. Just someone with a need for a particular amount of money who thought this family had at least $118,000. they could get to easily and quickly if the motivation was extreme. Someone who was prepared to kill the child, but didn't intend to kill her so soon or leave her in the house. That came about because of some unexpected sequence of events, I think. whether you believe one of the parents is guilty (or both) or that a sex-ring was involved or see more than one possibility (like me) or think the whole thing is a gigantic hoax (you out there Betsy?) ... my only suggestion would be to trust your own reasoning. Consider the facts, not the media fluff, not the forum poster group-think (on either side) or the talk show rants. Anything that attempts to use emotional tug-and-pull isn't valid reasoning material, it's usually there to manipulate. Each of us has the resources to find our own beliefs without waiting for someone else to tell us what to think. And, at least that way, even if we're wrong, we can stand before a mirror and look into our own eyes without regret. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 25. "Gem--there aren't" Posted by fiddler on 18:43:59 5/16/2000 any driveways along the alleys in that neighborhood, that I saw--any driveways with visible garages (rare) would lead into the street. The houses have their backyards along the alley, mostly completely enclosed with eight-foot privacy fences, and most have garages in back, with automatic openers, fronting directly onto the alley. (It's the same in the older areas of Denver.) So that wouldn't get around the problem of a stranger's car being obvious to other residents--any intruder who parked in a driveway would be parking in front of that house, not somewhere out of sight. And, "he" would be running the risk of having parked in an occupied driveway. If "he" knew the neighborhood and the people well, though, that wouldn't necessarily be a big deal. As far as stun guns go--how far away from a person do you have to be when you shoot one? The thing that's always seemed massively unlikely to me is this--if the "intruder" was standing there while JBR was sleeping, why not get as close as possible? And then--WHY WOULD YOU SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE CHIN? If you had an unobstructed aim at an unmoving target? And why behind the ear? Both these areas are extremely bony, with almost no flesh covering them, and certainly no muscle. It's my understanding that stun guns work by paralyzing muscle tissue, is that right? Or not? Stun gun owners? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 26. "Zoomama, Fiddler" Posted by frankg on 19:11:08 5/16/2000 Zoomama, there is no egress from the cellar that I can tell from the floor plans I have. Besides, I seriously doubt John would have been so bold as to go retrieve a body from a car (which, BTW, couldn't have been theirs since their cars were in the garage) with the cops, friends, and I'm sure neighbors looking on. Fiddler, when I visited the house I parked on Cascade Ave (the road perpendicular to 15th Street) near the entrance to the alley. I felt like I could park there at any time and no one would have noticed me based on how the houses are laid out. Certainly during the holidays when many people have out of town guests, who would have paid attention to an unfamiliar car, especially when it was dark? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 24. "Theory #2" Posted by Gemini on 18:42:38 5/16/2000 Possibly, it happened along the line of Lacey/Steve Thomas's theory ... up to a point. PR could, very well, have caused the head injury. Whether the kicker was actual abuse or a fatal rage, she probably did not mean to cause the irreversible outcome. The only reason I can think of to explain the cover-up (instead of a frantic and determined effort to get help and save JB) would be to hide the act from John. She'd have probably known causing harm to one of the children would be something he'd never forgive. Sorry docg, I do not believe JR would have been capable of killing JB or covering for the killer, given the trauma of losing his older daughter as he did. No, if PR did it, she could not have let him find out the circumstances. Therefore, if she IS guilty, so is someone else in connection with the cover-up. Someone removed enough from a close emotional bond with JB that (s)he could have followed through with all the things that were done, from the strangulation to the vaginal abuse. Someone whose name has sitll not been connected to the crime in this way (as far as we know). I don't think this one is as likely as the other (see above post), but possible. The key may be in the phone records for that night. I certainly hope the investigation knows about all the phones that may have been in that house. We have one regular cell phone, personal in-home phones, the business phone, plus a small cell phone for local calls only that l'il GEM carries for our peace of mind. Did Burke/JB have personal cell phones? If PR was the source of the head wound, I seriously doubt she'd have been able to follow through with the, rather complex, cover-up details without help. If she had help, she had to have contacted someone in the wee hours of the 26th, or around midnight on the 25th. The phone records would probably make or break this possibility. jmo, of course. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 23. "Ryder or anyone" Posted by zoomama on 18:23:52 5/16/2000 Does anyone know if the basement leads to the outside. I have always wondered about FW's statement about not seeing JB's body in that little dark room when he looked in there. Was wondering if her body was outside somewhere and JR brought it in later on his solo trip that morning. What I was thinking was that mabe she was hidden in a car perhaps in the driveway or near the house and he, JR, retreived it for placement in that room she was found in. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 27. "Thanks Fiddler and FrankG" Posted by Gemini on 19:26:54 5/16/2000 for the parking information. Having heard there were garages on the alley, I guess I made the mistake of assuming there were also driveways. Seems as if it would be very difficult to turn out of a narrow alley, directly into a garage. However, the street you parked on, Frank, would certainly be a likely alternative. About the stun gun. There are different types. I understood the one Smit and the CO expert identified as likely to have caused the marks could have been used either at a short distance or via direct contact. I'd have to hear the exact Smit theory to understand where he's coming from about the marks. Until just recently, the references were to marks on the back and leg. Even with low volt types, I'd think it would be quite dangerous to stun a small child in the chest or head. (outta here, back tomorrow) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ]