Justice Watch Discussion Board "LET'S PLAY BARBIES!" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... LET'S PLAY BARBIES!, Holly, 13:34:21, 5/30/2000 Holly, Sioux, 13:59:24, 5/30/2000, (#1) Sioux., Holly, 14:05:02, 5/30/2000, (#3) Does the Barbie image, Holly, 13:59:57, 5/30/2000, (#2) fashion dolls, pinker, 14:47:06, 5/30/2000, (#4) Patsy said, Seeker, 15:06:28, 5/30/2000, (#5) Then..., 7kluz, 15:14:05, 5/30/2000, (#6) For what it is worth...., Luvsbeagles, 15:24:54, 5/30/2000, (#7) barbie nightgown, becky, 22:26:41, 5/30/2000, (#36) Circumstances, lake, 15:31:54, 5/30/2000, (#9) lake., Holly, 16:04:16, 5/30/2000, (#12) Holly, lake, 17:00:36, 5/30/2000, (#19) Lake, I don't get, Seeker, 15:41:19, 5/30/2000, (#10) Or..., Seeker, 15:30:44, 5/30/2000, (#8) Seeker., Holly, 15:59:30, 5/30/2000, (#11) Seeker, lake, 16:10:29, 5/30/2000, (#14) Does Daphne have, Holly, 16:11:52, 5/30/2000, (#15) Oh, and I meant to, Holly, 16:06:47, 5/30/2000, (#13) hearts and roses, maundy, 02:13:53, 5/31/2000, (#45) Lake & Holly, Seeker, 16:27:47, 5/30/2000, (#16) Seeker..., becky, 22:32:15, 5/30/2000, (#37) Seeker, lake, 16:30:30, 5/30/2000, (#17) We Girls Can Do Anything, janphi, 16:38:36, 5/30/2000, (#18) Here comes LakeyPatsyPooPoo, Greenleaf, 17:12:36, 5/30/2000, (#20) Janphi , pinker, 18:23:25, 5/30/2000, (#21) She-Ra, Zandra, 09:45:56, 6/02/2000, (#59) pinker., Holly, 20:19:05, 5/30/2000, (#28) Oh, Pinker, I Wish!, janphi, 18:51:50, 5/30/2000, (#22) Barbies.., Dianne E., 19:08:58, 5/30/2000, (#24) Barbie by bear, Starling, 19:02:41, 5/30/2000, (#23) Thanks, Starling, janphi, 19:56:28, 5/30/2000, (#27) Starling, hareen, 19:29:56, 5/30/2000, (#25) Barbie's origins?, lee2, 21:43:03, 5/30/2000, (#31) lee2, Sioux, 10:10:58, 5/31/2000, (#48) If you insist..., janphi, 12:40:41, 5/31/2000, (#51) janphi, Sioux, 13:38:25, 5/31/2000, (#55) Poor Barbie, lee2, 12:46:06, 5/31/2000, (#52) Hi lee2, janphi, 13:43:44, 5/31/2000, (#56) Perky breasted?, maundy, 13:33:03, 5/31/2000, (#54) Just One Correction, janphi, 21:54:51, 5/30/2000, (#34) Excellent Starling., Holly, 20:21:22, 5/30/2000, (#29) Barbie, Pope38, 19:54:53, 5/30/2000, (#26) Monarch programming, maundy, 21:01:39, 5/30/2000, (#30) maundy, Sioux, 10:13:44, 5/31/2000, (#49) Maundy, au contraire!, lee2, 21:45:38, 5/30/2000, (#32) Besides . . . , lee2, 21:47:05, 5/30/2000, (#33) JonBenet, tall-p, 22:47:24, 5/30/2000, (#38) In some clip or other, fiddler, 22:08:24, 5/30/2000, (#35) fiddler, Sioux, 10:17:27, 5/31/2000, (#50) Barbie Does Beta, lee2, 23:07:08, 5/30/2000, (#39) Packaging, Luvsa Mystery, 23:48:51, 5/30/2000, (#40) Ligature Barbie, lee2, 00:01:31, 5/31/2000, (#41) Ligature Barbie, Luvsa Mystery, 00:44:21, 5/31/2000, (#42) Can you believe tonight (as I had Barbie on the Brain), lee2, 00:52:39, 5/31/2000, (#43) Hawaiin ref?, maundy, 01:44:31, 5/31/2000, (#44) Maundy, lee2, 08:46:44, 5/31/2000, (#47) Does anyone have an, Holly, 07:31:03, 5/31/2000, (#46) Holly, Shiller's Barbies, guardian, 07:33:42, 6/02/2000, (#58) Maybe this has been, gaiabetsy, 13:24:04, 5/31/2000, (#53) gaibetsey., Holly, 20:03:53, 5/31/2000, (#57) ................................................................... "LET'S PLAY BARBIES!" Posted by Holly on 13:34:21 5/30/2000 Not really. Let's think about Barbies, is what I really meant. I just finished listening to MW again. I wanted to hear the Barbie part. She says her niece reacted strongly to a binder with a Barbie picture on it. She tried to get out of the car. Apparently she was afraid she was being taken somewhere to be hurt - again. The Barbie image was a trigger. And I remember in PMPT, the Barbies hanging from the ceiling in that weird-o restaurant. Over and over we were treated to that location as if there was a connection. Was there? And, in what might just be a coincidence, the college student and his "bondage Barbie" fetish. Didn't he toss a bondage Barbie on the Hellhole lawn? Didn't the Rams want to know all about what HE knew about JB's murder. And most importantly, what was found IN the Hellhole. Near JB's body lay a Barbie nightgown. Who advanced the "fact" that this nightgown was JonBenet's favorite possession? Was that in PMPT? Is it true? Or was it suggested to someone? I can think of only 3 ways that nightgown got there. 1. The stager/killer/killers put it there on purpose. 2. It static clung to the blanket that was pulled from the bed or dryer. 3. JB clung to it or held it during the last moments of her life. So what is it about the Barbie image? We know about the bears and the hearts. When did Barbie get involved? Is an image like that typical in sex ring behaviors? How would the little girl have been shown or subjected to the Barbie doll or image? And why/how did a Barbie nightgown end up next to JonBenet in the windowless room? [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "Holly" Posted by Sioux on 13:59:24 5/30/2000 Holly, I understand that this bizarre case has many turns and twists, many more than we have already imagine or talked about, but personally, I don't think the Barbies issue is one of the most challenging: **The Barbie image was a trigger.** I understand that this child must have had her reasons to be freaked out, but to me, WITHOUT being a feminist, Barbies represent the peak of stupidity and mind crontol exersized upon a child. "I" feel a lot like jumping out of a car if I see one (LOL). Seriously: I don't have daughters, so I haven't been "challanged " with a little voice resquesting me one of these artifacts, BUT I doubt I would have given in and buy one.While there are many dolls in the market, only one is the paradigm and ultimate repressentation of a sexual object: BARBIE. I don't know the answers to all your questions, really, but I can risk this: **And most importantly, what was found IN the Hellhole. Near JB's body lay a Barbie nightgown. Who advanced the "fact" that this nightgown was JonBenet's favorite possession?** I don't know if it's a fact or not, but I'm sure it could very possibly be. Patsy is exactly the type of mother that would give her the whole collection of Barbies since she was born.She had six years and a few months of brainwashing when she died. **So what is it about the Barbie image? We know about the bears and the hearts. When did Barbie get involved?** Barbie was involved before she was BORN since Patsy IS a Barbie herself. ** Is an image like that typical in sex ring behaviors?** It wouldn't surprise me. ** How would the little girl have been shown or subjected to the Barbie doll or image?** Do you mean that night or in her life? ** And why/how did a Barbie nightgown end up next to JonBenet in the windowless room? ** The killer's signature. That's what it is. SHE HAD TO LEAVE IT THERE. Sioux [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "Sioux." Posted by Holly on 14:05:02 5/30/2000 Everything I have read or heard indicates that the nightgown had a Barbie image on it. I did not see any Barbie dolls in room photos. I never read that JB had a Barbie collection. I do know she liked American Girl dolls. I did not read about or see any Barbie gift debris under the tree or in JB's room. Oddly, I never heard of anything connected to Barbie except that the Barbie nightgown was her FAVORITE possession. And that strikes me as very peculiar. And prolly not even a fact. A stuffed toy maybe. Some jewelry or a favorite book. But a tacky nightie? Dunno. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "Does the Barbie image" Posted by Holly on 13:59:57 5/30/2000 relate to something shown these young victims? Or does someone they interact with LOOK like Barbie, on purpose? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "fashion dolls" Posted by pinker on 14:47:06 5/30/2000 I think the nightgown was used in the staging as one of the potential costumes, or props. She may have had it on at one point(rehersal) and later was redressed and the killer forgot or didn't realize it had clung to the blanket. The two different strangulations, one visable with the garrotte and a second earlier perhaps by hand or with the red turtleneck also empasize the staging. I do trust the FBI in their conclusion that there was staging. Most little girls love Barbie. She is the #1 selling doll the world over, the backbone for Mattel. She is also the #1 collected doll. She is also the #1 licensed property for little girls(Playthings Magazine). Most people have negative images of little girls playing with that hoochie momma doll yet with Barbie little girls do play or project themselves as grown-ups, the ultimate goal of childhood. "Play is the work of children". Barbie should also be regarded positively because she is affordable. Look in your own supermarket and you'll probably find one in swimwear for under 5 bucks, what a deal. Most families can not afford to have life like rendetions of their daughters custom made. What would have been more unusual would have been the absence of Barbie in the life of JBR. I'm sure other women will chastize me for promoting her but I love, covet, cherish, and collect all dolls. My favorites are baby dolls but I have plenty of room on the shelf reserved for Barbie. I actually never played with Barbie, I liked Skipper better. No I don't currently work for Mattel. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "Patsy said" Posted by Seeker on 15:06:28 5/30/2000 that the barbie nightgown was JonBenet's favorite nightgown, not possession. Also, Patsy said (I'll try and find the exact reference) that she drew the heart on JonBenet's hand. It was something she did when JonBenet was feeling pensive about going to bed. It was supose to mean that JonBenet was, or had, Patsy's heart. These were words directly from Patsy's mouth very early in the investigation. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "Then..." Posted by 7kluz on 15:14:05 5/30/2000 JonBenet MUST have been up when they arrived home for Pats to have been able to draw the heart to encourage JonBenet to go to bed??? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "For what it is worth...." Posted by Luvsbeagles on 15:29:05 5/30/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 15:29:05, 5/30/2000 not trying to support one theory over the other...but my daughter has the same Barbie nightgown. (we didnt buy it...it came with a barbie who has a minature one just like it) and I have to tell you...it is a very tacky polyester affair that CLINGS TO EVERYTHING. I would find that nightgown in our sheets, in the dogs blanket, in my jeans...it was awful. She hardly ever wore it precisely because we could never find it....it was always "stuck" somewhere. So If I had to guess I would vote for static cling. Edited to add....this would also mean that when they (She..he...it) pulled the blanket from the dryer to wrap her in, they were either in a big hurry or very distracted not to notice the nightgown. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 36. "barbie nightgown" Posted by becky on 22:26:41 5/30/2000 How interesting..... jbr gets a life size doll that looks just like her, and the life size barbie nightgown comes with a barbie who has a minature one just like it. Another little interesting fact in the case. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "Circumstances" Posted by lake on 15:31:54 5/30/2000 Seem to support learned behavior on the part of a younger than one might expect juvenile in this killing. IMO the woman from Ca. that came forward after three years with her charges of years of physical, sexual and mental abuse (that her own "mother" obviously played a major role in) has a major bearing on this case. If JBR came into contact with a child that had been subjected to such abuse (and it appears that she just may have) then the learned behavior of another child could be the piece of the puzzle that is missing from what the the BPD and the Ramsey investigation is willing to share with the public about this case. And the hidden from the public juvenile would go a long way toward explaining the abnormal behavior of the Whites throughout this case. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 12. "lake." Posted by Holly on 16:04:16 5/30/2000 Are you suggesting Fleet lll? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 19. "Holly" Posted by lake on 17:02:13 5/30/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 17:02:13, 5/30/2000 I am suggesting that this crime could have been done by a younger juvenile that one might expect if that juvenile/juveniles had been exposed to the type of behavior that the woman from Ca. claims was normal behavior in her life. And if that woman has a young neice that had visited in the company of the Ramseys in the past with the "mother" of the woman from Ca., then you might have the mixture of juveniles that might make something as odd as this case take place. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. "Lake, I don't get" Posted by Seeker on 15:41:19 5/30/2000 what the "abnormal behavior" of the White's is. Could you elaborate on what constitues abnormal behavior? Do you not think the Ramsey's have exibited abnormal behavior throughout the entire investigation? I'm just asking. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 8. "Or..." Posted by Seeker on 15:30:44 5/30/2000 she drew the heart on before they got home because JonBenet was fussing about going to bed when they got home? Remember, she believed she was going to have a "special" visit after Christmas from Santa. Or the heart could have been drawn earlier in the day for naptime. I don't believe the coroner was able to determine when the heart was drawn. It could have been on there from the night before. Kids are notorious for not washing their hands and that could also account for the "unidentified" DNA found under her nails. She could have gotten it from a sales clerk when they were out shopping the day before, or?... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 11. "Seeker." Posted by Holly on 15:59:30 5/30/2000 JR said in the POS that he didn't even know which hand the heart was drawn on. I think I know the reference you're remembering. Years ago a pageant mom, I think, or a Patsy friend suggested Patsy used to draw "good luck hearts" in JB's palms, but I don't think it was ever actually said by Patsy. I am glad you said the nightgown was her fave instead of the nightgown being her fave possession. If you can find the precise references -- please post. I'd like to save those. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 14. "Seeker" Posted by lake on 16:11:39 5/30/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 16:11:39, 5/30/2000 Well if the Whites were official publc suspects, their behavior would not seem abnormal. And since the Rs have been the focus of a criminal investigation from day one, I would not expect their behavior to be normal. The Rs have been the official public suspects, so their behavior would tend to be looked at with suspicion by many,not matter what their actions might be. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "Does Daphne have" Posted by Holly on 16:11:52 5/30/2000 Barbies? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. "Oh, and I meant to" Posted by Holly on 16:06:47 5/30/2000 suggest, that JR is saying they did not know a heart was on her hand. A heart, bears, and Barbie are all images MW describes -- before JB was even murdered. Coincidence? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 45. "hearts and roses" Posted by maundy on 02:13:53 5/31/2000 in thomas's abt.com chat, someone asked im if they traced the ink from the heart toa pen. he said no. weird imagery. remember the pic of hte little blond girl in the coffin on the walls of DIA? (knoformist.com, check 1999 issues) it ws discussed here earlier, and someone thought there was a heart and star on the little girl. someone else said it was a rose and the star of david. there is also a corss in the coffin. interestingly, the latter three are featured on the rose cross of lamen (IRNI). i llloked at the pic again but it's too fuzzy to make out much detail. so i'm not sure. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "Lake & Holly" Posted by Seeker on 16:27:47 5/30/2000 You did not answer my question though. You circled around it. Why? All I want to understand is why people think the White's are acting abnormally? In what way? Is it because FW was angry at John & Patsy doing the CNN interview BEFORE being interviewed by police? Or was it something I missed? If you can't actually answer the question that's OK, just don't him-n-haw around it. Thanks. Holly, good question. John doesn't seem to notice many things. He's a business man and may not have even noticed she was missing if not for Patsy's hystrionics. I'm not suggesting he's stupid, but more that he was usually focused on business matters, not domestic ones. How often do men know what their children were wearing when they left the house as opposed to the mothers? Most are far more focused on financial matters, business matters, and in his case employee concerns, etc. to notice what the kids are wearing, let alone sporting as jewlery, etc. It may have just slipped by him (not noticing). I remember Patsy actually saying, "it was one of our little rituals. Me drawing a heart on her hand to let her know___" (I forget the rest, I think I have it on video tape somewhere though). [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 37. "Seeker..." Posted by becky on 22:32:15 5/30/2000 hmm...is your name P........ .h...? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 17. "Seeker" Posted by lake on 16:30:55 5/30/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 16:30:55, 5/30/2000 I have laid out the Whites abnormal behavior on several occasions. I have no interest in laying it out again for you. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "We Girls Can Do Anything" Posted by janphi on 16:38:36 5/30/2000 Wow, Holly, a topic near and dear to my heart. In fact, searching for some new Barbie sites was what led me to wander onto LH mountain the first time--hir listed Barbie as one of their keywords for search engines. When I read what their Barbie story was (about the lawn Barbie at hellhole), I thought it must be secret code to attract either children to their site or peds to their site, looking, I suppose, for the killer intruder. I'm a biased pro-Barbie person, since I'm a huge collector (11 years and 4,000+ dolls) and media spokesperson for the doll. Luckily, pinker pointed out above some facts I don't need to repeat about Barbie's worldwide popularity, with children as well as adults (women and men). I'm not aware of the restaurant in PMPT, but Barbies from the ceiling as a fad started with the movie Priscilla, Queen of the Desert, where they had one suspended on their tour bus. Hmmm, I don't know what opinion to form about JBR's relationship with Barbies. I asked the question the other day if she had the Country Western Star Barbie from 1995, because this doll wore an outfit so similar to the one JBR wore in the pageant when she sang "Cowboy's Sweetheart" that it had to be copied from the doll. No one answered me, so I guess we don't know. I thought someone might have commented then that JBR had a lot of Barbies, but no one did, so perphaps this isn't known. To own or not own, to give or not give, Barbie dolls to little girls, and at what age, is a controversy. I would imagine you would have a hard time finding very many Barbies in very many houses of little girls in Boulder compared to other US cities, but then Patsy wasn't a typical Boulderite, either. What I have found, traveling around the US with Barbies, is that little girls universally love the dolls and recognize them and want to own them, even if their moms are of the "politically correct" mindset that Barbie is a sexist icon. A mom can be standing there giving me what-for about all this and how she won't allow her daughters to even see a Barbie commercial, etc., and her 3-yo will be right there on the floor pulling Barbies out of my flight bag and saying "Barbie" and having a wonderful time entertaining herself with imaginary people play with the dolls. Since JBR had American Girl dolls, she probably had already "graduated" from Barbies earlier. Kids outgrow their Barbies well before age 8 nowadays, when the average age was 10 for many years. A child who might have had a huge number of Barbies at ages 3-5 might all of a sudden think they were "babyish" at age 6. I've always wanted to know if JBR had a Barbie Dream House in the playroom, or if she had ever had one. Since that is the ultimate Christmas/holiday gift to little girls (still #1 most asked-for for over 30 years), knowing whether JBR ever had one would tell me a little about the PR/JBR relationship. A far as the Barbie nightgown--I've really wondered about its sybolism here, too. I also have seen it described as her "lucky pageant nightgown" and I've seen it described as "red." Since so few of the cheesy little Barbie nightgowns sold are red (most are pink) this has always raised my eyebrows. I wonder if it was a holiday design and if she had just gotten it for Christmas. Does anyone know? I'd also like to know why it was bought, since nearly all the Barbie nightgowns have a matching doll-size gown and JBR would have needed to have a Barbie doll to put the matching gown on. I wonder if the gown was old, like maybe "last year's" or something. What I'm getting at is: Did JBR ever go through a Barbie phase like most little girls? Did she have to give it up at her mother's insistence? Was Barbie still her favorite doll, even though PR had moved on to more expensive ones? Was "going back to Barbie" considered part of the babyish regressive behavior like the bed soiling? I thought I did read that JBR had at least owned a My Size Barbie in the past. Is this not true? That's not the same as fashion doll size Barbies (111/2" tall), but would be a typical PR purchase--the top of the children's line at $100+. In fact, the doll looked a lot like JBR when her hair was bleached. Wish we knew! At least we know there wasn't an adult collectors' Barbie collection started for JBR--such as the Happy Holidays Barbies and Bob Mackie Barbies ($225-$1,000 and up on the secondary market). That sort of surprised me, but tells me PR didn't like Barbies very much and that perhaps JBR (still) did. I especially wonder if there had been any teasing of JBR about being a "little Barbie doll" said by parents or other children. I think anyone could see the similarities to the plastic princess. Last but not least, Barbies are definitely known to be lures used by pedophiles and people attempting to kidnap little girls. Even though I'm a woman, I always make sure to let parents come see my Barbie collection first, so that they'll be comfortable letting their kids come play in my Barbie room. It's a sad commentary on today's society, that I learned from a good friend who played a certain well known McD's clown--he couldn't even allow children to sit on his lap or carry babies a certain way because of corporate legal guidelines. Chances are, with MW's niece, the handlers had found the right hot button with anything relating to Barbie. OTOH, she might have a militant mama who has instilled a Barbie hatred in her. (Have seen a few of those types of children myself.) Once again, there are some who feel that if they teach their children very young not to want things advertised on TV, the children will not be vulnerable later in life to credit card debt or a lifetime of envy. It's a good thought and I agree, but little girls will find Barbie, anyway. Sorry this is so long--a firsthand subject I love and know well! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 20. "Here comes LakeyPatsyPooPoo" Posted by Greenleaf on 17:15:35 5/30/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 17:15:35, 5/30/2000 What's that? More sticky spaghetti, in hand? One strand for the juvenile. One stand for the MW. One stand for FW. Anything stick on the wall yet, Lakey? How did the interview with Robison go? Greenleaf Edited to correct misspelled word. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 21. "Janphi " Posted by pinker on 18:23:25 5/30/2000 You have the absolute most perfect job in the world!!!!!!! I am so green. I've sold dolls before and it's a blessing when you can do something you love and get paid for it. Many think that famous pink isle in the toy section is awash in Pepto-Bismal, but to me it's cotton candy. You must work out of El Segundo. To bad about your boss-wasn't she one of the only female CEOs? I think The Learning Company was a forgivable mistake. I hope the toy business turns around and limits their dependency on licensed products. I have a great girl's action figure design I'm trying to market. Yes, a girl's action figure in the realm of My Little Pony or Care Bears, nothing like She-Ra Princess of Power. Little girls actions are different so the concept of action figures should be too. I could go on forever. I'm also jealous of your employee discount, though not if you have to get dolls in damaged boxes. Is it true Barbie is going to be sold through some sort of Barbie direct catalogue? Holly-Most girl's playthings are pink or purple and need an association with hearts or flowers to make it in today's market. Bears are another symbol universal to all of childhood. MW's claims are very general. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 59. "She-Ra" Posted by Zandra on 09:45:56 6/02/2000 Huh, pinker? What are you talking about? My daughter loved She-Ra, Princess of Power. Even better, the Golden Girls, same concept but a nicer doll with outfits and more personality. I asked her (age 18) the other day if she was ready to get rid of her Golden Girl castle and she answered tersely, "What do you think?" Meaning, NO. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 28. "pinker." Posted by Holly on 20:19:05 5/30/2000 I know hearts, Barbies and bears are generic symbols. Still they are exactly what MW says she reported as part of her experience. She could have said "No, I recall unicorns, My Little Pony, Happy Faces". What is significant to me is that they are the the SAME images. But beyond MW, how about the Schiller Barbies? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 22. "Oh, Pinker, I Wish!" Posted by janphi on 18:51:50 5/30/2000 >You have the absolute most perfect job >in the world!!!!!!! I am so >green. I thought it would be, too! >I've sold dolls before >and it's a blessing when you >can do something you love and >get paid for it. Yes it is--but I should've been more careful about what I prayed for! >Many >think that famous pink isle in >the toy section is awash in >Pepto-Bismal, but to me it's cotton >candy. It is to me, too, obviously, but no, I haven't sold any of them yet--but working on it. >You must work out >of El Segundo. Nope, I'm a consultant in Texas. >To bad >about your boss-wasn't she one of >the only female CEOs? I won't get on my soapbox here. We were semi-proud of Jill when she was there--good press for Mattel and it helped my job considerably. But those of us who worked with collectible Barbies every day knew the inside scoop and we are very, very glad she is gone. She cost me personally over $100,000 minimum by her actions. >I >think The Learning Company was a >forgivable mistake. Not exactly. Nor is the $50 million severance package being paid for by stockholders (like me, for instance!). >I hope the >toy business turns around and limits >their dependency on licensed products. Agreed. OTOH, Barbie could be better licensed on its own and help the Company, but current paranoia in the Company hinders that. I'm working on something I hope will help with this, but who knows. >I could go on >forever. Me, too. And I usually do. >I'm also jealous of >your employee discount, though not if >you have to get dolls in >damaged boxes. I don't get one. Every once in a blue moon, I get a preview doll to keep, but that has stopped since the downturn. Damaged boxes are fine with me, I'm not a box collector. I am a Barbie scenarist/dioramist. I make Barbie "lifescenes" with realistic furniture, accessories and decor. >Is it true >Barbie is going to be sold >through some sort of Barbie direct >catalogue? They're talking about it--if you mean something other than the one they already do and have done for 6-8 years. They can't upset Wal-Mart and Toys R Us, which is why you can't buy Barbie dolls through the Mattel website at this time. We'll see what kind of changes might happen with our new Kraft Foods ex-president Eckert. We're currently voting on certain BOD members and I hope they are all ousted, leaving only Ralph Whitworth. JMHO. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 24. "Barbies.." Posted by Dianne E. on 19:08:58 5/30/2000 ...never entered my "radar screen" till Jameson posted the Barbie Bondage site and information, hmmmm. Then I got to thinking, JonBenet was dressed to look like a "Hooker" Barbie, the Barbie nightie, yada yada. WHY would a KEY Ramsey internet spokesperson be posting such a BIG CLUE with the Barbie Bondage info is still my big question? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL Dianne E. ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 23. "Barbie by bear" Posted by Starling on 19:02:41 5/30/2000 If I'm not mistaken, I think the consensus long ago, was this is Barbie - as Rapunzel. Starling [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 27. "Thanks, Starling" Posted by janphi on 19:56:28 5/30/2000 Yes, that is the Children's Collector Edition "Barbie as Rapunzel" that came out in 1995 (box date 1994). What is important, I think, is that JBR was allowed to take the doll out of its box and play with it. I would've not thought that, knowing what we've learned about PR. The doll was $20 when introduced and was the First Edition in a new collector series--the first series geared specifically for children (all other collectible Barbies up until that time were for 14-16 years and above--ha ha). I'm glad to know she got to play with it and didn't have to put it away in a closet for future value or up on a shelf where it was "untouchable." (The first in a series is usually the one that increases a little more in value than the rest--the ones after this in that series were BoPeep, Cinderella, Sleeping Beauty. Unfortunately, there was another Rapunzel introduced in 1998 that was much prettier and more appealing to adult collectors, so this one hasn't increased, not that it matters.) I'm just very happy to know that Jon Benét got to play with it! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 25. "Starling" Posted by hareen on 19:29:56 5/30/2000 Yes. As I read this thread, I was remembering that a Barbie was beside the Santa bear. I can't even see it now, though. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 31. "Barbie's origins?" Posted by lee2 on 21:43:03 5/30/2000 Here's the link - http://www.strangelove.com/book/chp-5.html Barbie made her début as a female symbol in 1957 after Ruth Handler designed a doll with a body based on "Bild Lili," a German doll which was marketed as a sex toy for men. "Lili" first appeared as a streetwalker in a German comic strip. Earlier, in 1945, Ruth formed the Mattel corporation with her husband Elliot Handler. Ruth and Elliot hired Ernst Dichter, who was at that time director of the Institute for Motivational Research. Dr. Dichter approached marketing from a methodology informed by Sigmund Freud's theories. Dichter marketed the doll which Ruth had based on "Lili" and had named after her daughter, Barbie. The Barbie doll grew up to become one of the more prominent and lucrative symbols of consumer culture and the American female. In 1996 the Mattel Corporation claimed revenues totalling 4.5 billion dollars U.S. Barbie, along with her cars, clothes, pets, friends, including her constant companion, Ken, and all their accessories, earned revenues totalling 1.7 billion dollars U.S. in the same year. According to Mattel, 99 percent of all American girls between the ages of three and ten own at least one Barbie, with the average girl owning eight. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 48. "lee2" Posted by Sioux on 10:10:58 5/31/2000 I haven't gone to that site you mentioned yet, but I found interesting the info you give about the history of Barbies: **Barbie made her début as a female symbol in 1957 after Ruth Handler designed a doll with a body based on "Bild Lili," a German doll which was marketed as a sex toy for men.** Why am I not surprised? **"Lili" first appeared as a streetwalker in a German comic strip. Earlier, in 1945, Ruth formed the Mattel corporation with her husband Elliot Handler. Ruth and Elliot hired Ernst Dichter, who was at that time director of the Institute for Motivational Research. Dr. Dichter approached marketing from a methodology informed by Sigmund Freud's theories.** I really don't know what this is supposed to mean, but I would give a free interpretation of this sort: The Barbie doll is design to satisfy the "hooker inside" in every woman? ** Dichter marketed the doll which Ruth had based on "Lili" and had named after her daughter, Barbie.** Ooops! Freudian slip, Ruth. ** The Barbie doll grew up to become one of the more prominent and lucrative symbols of consumer culture and the American female.** For what it follows, it seems more than a lucrative SYMBOL: ** In 1996 the Mattel Corporation claimed revenues totalling 4.5 billion dollars U.S. Barbie, along with her cars, clothes, pets, friends, including her constant companion, Ken, and all their accessories, earned revenues totalling 1.7 billion dollars U.S. in the same year. According to Mattel, 99 percent of all American girls between the ages of three and ten own at least one Barbie, with the average girl owning eight.** Jeez!After this summary, I hate Barbies even more! Sioux [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 51. "If you insist..." Posted by janphi on 12:40:41 5/31/2000 I was going to let the rest of the skewed story go by as written, but since Sioux is basing her opinion on it, I think I need to point out some of the flaws in it. >**Barbie made her début as a female >symbol in1957 after Ruth Handler designed >a doll witha body based on >"Bild Lili," a German dollwhich was >marketed as a sex toy for >men.** Ruth and her daughter Barbara were on a ski trip in Switzerland and fell in love with some fashion dolls they found in a little toy shop in the village where they were staying (Lucerne). What they really liked were the little ski parkas and pants--there were 5 different outfits all on the same basic doll. They each bought one doll, wishing they could buy all five outfits separately--in fact, the shopkeeper commented that was something "only Americans" would ask. In Austria, they found more "Lilli" dolls with even more different ski outfits. Ruth and her husband owned an up-and-coming toy company in Los Angeles, Mattel, and Ruth had been thinking for a long time (like 5 years or so) about an adult doll like the adult paper dolls Barbara liked to play with, so she decided she would think about manufacturing and marketing a doll like the ski doll. The problem was that this doll had breasts and none of the current dolls on the market were anatomically built like that. Ruth went round and round with the men in the company about this feature of the doll. All the men told her that mothers wouldn't let their daughters buy such a thing. Baby dolls were more popular. Meanwhile, Ruth sent some people to Japan to see if a doll like the Swiss/Austrian (actually, German-made) dolls could be made. The German doll was indeed a "Bild Lilli." "Bild" was the equivalent of "Life" Magazine in Germany at the time. "Lilli" was a cartoon character (not a strip, a free-standing one-line cartoon that ran in each issue) who was prone to wearing then-fashionable toreador pants and being flirtatious, but she wasn't exactly "R- or X-rated"--more like a "saucy" PG. It is true that the doll that had been made in the likeness of this cartoon "Lilli" was made for adults, not for children, but it wasn't what you would call a "sex toy." It was more like the souvenir dolls you would buy at a tourist trap to put on a knickknack shelf at home or tie to the rear-view mirror of your car. I think those little hula dancers are worse! >Ruth and Elliot hiredErnst >Dichter, who was at that time >directorof the Institute for Motivational Research. I don't know about this. The Institute already did research for the Company's other toys--guitars, ukeleles and popguns. >** Dichter marketed the doll whichRuth had >based on "Lili" and had named >afterher daughter, Barbie.** I have no idea where this statement came from. Mattel is the only company that has ever designed, manufactured, marketed or sold Barbie dolls. The Bild Lilli and later the Hong Kong Lilli dolls were made by another company and had nothing to do with Barbie, except that they were the same size and had similar facial features at first--maybe that's what this writer means. The main Barbie marketing point to resalers was the "razor blade" theory, as Ruth told it to me, meaning one doll will result in multiple sales of outfits, many return trips to the toy store by the customer. (Buy a razor, keep coming back for razor blades.) I know Ruth also hired some child development psychologists to make sure she was on the right track as far as play patterns with Barbie. This time period was a very critical turning point in American culture because the word "teenager" and the whole phenomenon of being a "teenager" was fairly new, believe it or not. The concept didn't happen until after the Depression and sometime around WWII. Until that time, kids were either kids or farm helpers or "little adults" who were starting their own households. With mandatory public schooling and higher college attendance came "later" marriages and child-rearing (later than ages 15-16). Thus sprang up the "teenage" class, with all that it means today. Starting with the jazzy 1920's and dancing the Charleston, to swooning over Sinatra during WWII, then in the 1950's with the great peacetime and booming economy and start of rock & roll, "teenagedom" was coming into its own. Ruth saw that Barbara wanted to be a teenager when she was still prepubescent. Her daughter and her little friends played with paper dolls that they could dress up for the prom or for going to the theater or in blue jeans or for a sock hop. Instead of training young girls only to nurture baby dolls, the toys were now inspiring kids to reach toward the future in a different way. Example: Barbie doll was an astronaut in 1964, 3 years after the first Americans went into space, 5 years before we walked on the moon and 19 years before Sally Ride became the first female in space. I think the "inside story" is kind of ironic, too. When I met Barbara in 1994, she had never owned a Barbie doll (she has now!), because by the time the first Barbie came out in March, 1959, Barbara at age 18 had "run off" and gotten married and rebelled against her mom spending so much time with the toy business. All is well in the Handler family now, (except that Ken, Barbara's brother, passed away 6 years ago from a mysterious brain disease contracted while doing scientific research in South America) and Ruth left Mattel over 20 years ago and started a breast prosthesis company after her bout with breast cancer. After selling that company at a tidy profit, Ruth has done guest lectures all around the US concerning breast cancer, has donated thousands of dollars worth of prostheses to poor women who needed them and occasionally makes Barbie-related appearances that benefit charitable causes. Over the years, the Barbie character has deliberately been rendered a "blank canvas" (no Saturday morning cartoon Barbies, no movies, no sitcom or real live person playing Barbie) so that whoever looks at her or plays with her can project themselves onto the vinyl doll. Personally, no, I can't stand the stupid mini-skirts they put on most of them, and I won't defend Mattel on a lot of things, but I know and have seen the process and the majority of what you see on the playline Barbie dolls in the toy stores today is a result of what little girls have asked for in focus groups and interactive feedback. Just wanted to balance out that story a little bit. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 55. "janphi" Posted by Sioux on 13:38:25 5/31/2000 I need to clarify something: I am not basing my opinion on barbie dolls upon their history, rather than in their PRESENT. I do find interesting what you say,though, and I truly think you have made a very thourough research . I envy your dedication.I feel an instant rapport with anyone who has a passion, like yours, a passion that seems to go beyond the "hobby" category. This said, my opinion on Barbies is unfortunatly the same poor opinion I had on them yesterday morning. I would feel contempt for them, as I can feel for any other big corporate symbol like mcDonalds, if I didn't think they are a bit more dangerous.Nevertheless, your post was qite impressive and educational. **They each bought one doll, wishing they could buy all five outfits separately--in fact, the shopkeeper commented that was something "only Americans" would ask.** Ain't THAT the truth! **The problem was that this doll had breasts and none of the current dolls on the market were anatomically built like that. Ruth went round and round with the men in the company about this feature of the doll. All the men told her that mothers wouldn't let their daughters buy such a thing. Baby dolls were more popular.** But they would get one for themselves? (LOL) **Meanwhile, Ruth sent some people to Japan to see if a doll like the Swiss/Austrian (actually, German-made) dolls could be made. The German doll was indeed a "Bild Lilli." "Bild" was the equivalent of "Life" Magazine in Germany at the time. "Lilli" was a cartoon character (not a strip, a free-standing one-line cartoon that ran in each issue) who was prone to wearing then-fashionable toreador pants and being flirtatious, but she wasn't exactly "R- or X-rated"--more like a "saucy" PG. It is true that the doll that had been made in the likeness of this cartoon "Lilli" was made for adults, not for children, but it wasn't what you would call a "sex toy."** I don't know janphi, with all due respect, I just find fascinating the lenghths that you and other Barbie fans go to "Desexualize" Barbie, or to tone her down. By the way, I personnaly have NO PROBLEM with a sexie Barbie, the point is that sex is such a big deal in this country. Americans are famous for this puritan aspect all around the world, and here of all places, a CHILD'S doll becomes a sexual icon! **I think those little hula dancers are worse!** There is always something worse. >Ruth and Elliot hiredErnst >Dichter, who was at that time >directorof the Institute for Motivational Research. I don't know about this. The Institute already did research for the Company's other toys--guitars, ukeleles and popguns. To me Barbie fits too perfectly into the american subcounciosness to NOT believe that it was very well thought out. **I know Ruth also hired some child development psychologists to make sure she was on the right track as far as play patterns with Barbie. This time period was a very critical turning point in American culture because the word "teenager" and the whole phenomenon of being a "teenager" was fairly new, believe it or not. The concept didn't happen until after the Depression and sometime around WWII. Until that time, kids were either kids or farm helpers or "little adults" who were starting their own households.** I don't understand if you mean that the first "clients" for the doll were teenagers? ** Instead of training young girls only to nurture baby dolls, the toys were now inspiring kids to reach toward the future in a different way.** And...Do you think they've succeeded?I mean, it seems that today moms are too busy to nurture anything at all. ** Example: Barbie doll was an astronaut in 1964, 3 years after the first Americans went into space, 5 years before we walked on the moon and 19 years before Sally Ride became the first female in space.** I can't find such a noble objective behind Mattel. I think it's more likely the same "razor blade" policy: the more outfits , the more sells. **After selling that company at a tidy profit, Ruth has done guest lectures all around the US concerning breast cancer, has donated thousands of dollars worth of prostheses to poor women who needed them and occasionally makes Barbie-related appearances that benefit charitable causes.** I think that is nice of her, BUT even when it's true that there are many rich folks that could care less about charitable causes, it's my belief that "noblesse obligue": Rich people have the MORAL DUTY of being generous. **Personally, no, I can't stand the stupid mini-skirts they put on most of them, and I won't defend Mattel on a lot of things, but I know and have seen the process and the majority of what you see on the playline Barbie dolls in the toy stores today is a result of what little girls have asked for in focus groups and interactive feedback.** People gets used to whatever you give them, no? Even poison.At a point they'll even start asking for it. **Just wanted to balance out that story a little bit.** Very good. I enjoyed the story and your knowledgeable background. Cheers. Sioux [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 52. "Poor Barbie" Posted by lee2 on 12:46:06 5/31/2000 I didn't mean to maim her image unnecessarily - after all - we seem to reserve all that for Patsy. I was the proud owner of a Barbie, Skipper and Ken and, to tell you the truth, I'm wondering if the smooth front side of Ken isn't the reason Viagra was invented . . . LOL! I merely copied and pasted what I read on the internet - proving, once again - you can't believe everything you read in the paper, hear on the news, or download from the internet. Thanks for the history of Barbie. One of my closest friends has never gotten over the fact that her parents compromised and bought her a knock-off Barbie named "Babs" or something like that. Barbie is a perky breasted icon from my past - but regardless, I'll never forgive her for having that skinny waist. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 56. "Hi lee2" Posted by janphi on 13:43:44 5/31/2000 >One of my closest friends has never >gotten over the fact that her >parents compromised and bought her a >knock-off Barbie named "Babs" or something >like that. You would be totally amazed at the number of people I hear this from when I am doing media appearances or interviews or when I started a large club. People don't forget things like that, and a lot of them decided to collect vintage and newer Barbies as adults simply to make up for the knock-off they got when young. They buy the most expensive Barbies they can find. Actually, "Babs" was pretty ugly, JMO, but there are some who recall her fondly (as kids, they didn't know there was a "Barbie" at the time) and are collecting her, too. Ah, what makes the world go 'round! Off of that subject, but back on the main one...I was setting up a Barbie photo shoot a couple of years ago...a Halloween party...and was posing a little Stacie (one of Barbie's younger sisters) doll who was dressed as "Bonnie Blue" from Gone with the Wind. Her particular expression and the exact way I posed her just screamed "Jon Benet" to me--and I was not into the case at all at that time. The little doll was literally posing itself as we went--and the eyes were following the camera focus. It spooked me so much I had to take a long break and come back to finish the scene. None of my dolls had ever "spoken" to me in that way--as if they were some real human being. (They "speak" to me in other ways, by the activities I pose them doing--beekeeping, archaeology, celebrating holidays, gardening, cooking, baking, crafts, teaching, and so forth. NOT like a little murdered girl who posed well.) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 54. "Perky breasted?" Posted by maundy on 13:33:03 5/31/2000 somehow that term hsa never entered my mind. i still say butterflt tatoo barbie looked like a streetwalker. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 34. "Just One Correction" Posted by janphi on 21:54:51 5/30/2000 >Barbie made her début as a female >symbol in 1957 It was 1959, actually March 9, 1959, at the American International Toy Fair in New York City. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 29. "Excellent Starling." Posted by Holly on 20:21:22 5/30/2000 I can't even see the darn thing. So now we know she had at least ONE Barbie. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 26. "Barbie" Posted by Pope38 on 19:54:53 5/30/2000 In the Documentary on A&E, Jonbenet holds up a Barbie doll that she has just unwrapped. I also would like to know what was up with those stupid flying Barbie dolls in Schiller's movie. They were weird and no explaination was give for the scene. Schiller is a creep! JMHO [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 30. "Monarch programming" Posted by maundy on 21:01:39 5/30/2000 FYI. i read where the Beta "sex"program of Project Monarch is also called Barbie programming. i'm sure you didn't want to know that. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 49. "maundy" Posted by Sioux on 10:13:44 5/31/2000 **i read where the Beta "sex"program of Project Monarch is also called Barbie programming.** Again, not surprising. Barbie is the perfect name for a PROGRAMMING OF THE MIND. That's what it's been about all the time. Sioux [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 32. "Maundy, au contraire!" Posted by lee2 on 21:45:38 5/30/2000 That was EXACTLY what I was wanting to hear! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 33. "Besides . . . " Posted by lee2 on 21:47:05 5/30/2000 Barbie was always the reason I was dissatisfied with my waist. She's controlled my life since childhood - so it's actually no secret (LOL!) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 38. "JonBenet" Posted by tall-p on 22:47:24 5/30/2000 Really looked like Barbie when she had that big blond hair. And she was tied up and strangled in some sort of bondage drama. It is way creepy but "Barbie bondage" is certainly a major issue here, and it hasn't really been picked apart... IMHO. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 35. "In some clip or other" Posted by fiddler on 22:08:24 5/30/2000 shown in one version of the crock or other, it showed videotape of an earlier Ramsey Christmas. JBR looked about four (pre-pageantized, anyway)--she was lugging around a huge box with a My Size Barbie in it. I remember thinking it was a surprisingly cheesy gift for a small child, given how many wonderful stuffed animals and dolls there are now, and how much money the Ramseys had. But maybe the idea of her daughter wearing the exact same clothes as Barbie fired Patsy's imagination.... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 50. "fiddler" Posted by Sioux on 10:17:27 5/31/2000 **I remember thinking it was a surprisingly cheesy gift for a small child, given how many wonderful stuffed animals and dolls there are now, and how much money the Ramseys had. ** But, fiddler, those "wonderful stuffed animals " are HEALTHY toys, we are talking about the Ramseys here. **But maybe the idea of her daughter wearing the exact same clothes as Barbie fired Patsy's imagination....** And John's....... Sioux [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 39. "Barbie Does Beta" Posted by lee2 on 23:39:29 5/30/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 23:39:29, 5/30/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 23:31:29, 5/30/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 23:28:56, 5/30/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 23:08:59, 5/30/2000 http://www.hotyellow98.com/spring2/mindcontrol.html "Alpha was the basis for all the other programs," she continued. "It seems to be where a lot of information was stored in my memory, in my mind, that was used by programmers to develop the other programs. It's where some of my more generic alter states were also stored. Beta was the sexual servicing part of me. They also sometimes called the alter state 'Barbie'. It was supposed to be named after Klaus Barbie." Like Barbie doll?" http://www.morethanconquerors.simplenet.com/MCF/ckln17.htm "Beta for me - another word that they used a lot, a code name, was "Barbie". Let's just say one person who is a politician heavily involved in this stuff, had even told me that Klaus Barbie was the one who originated that name which later became Beta. What that involved was that all the personalities who were used for what I knew as "sexual servicing" of other individuals - I was used both as a child and as an adult in those alter states, and I had more than one. In those alter states I would not resist, I had no anger, I was an absolute sexual slave and I would do whatever I was told to do. I also was not able to respond sexually, not to the same degree as I would normally, in a normal conscious state" [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 40. "Packaging" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 23:48:51 5/30/2000 Think how Barbie (and other dolls) dolls are packaged. Don't they have a band around the neck, sort of garrote like to keep them secure in the box? And perhaps a string around the wrist with a Barbie label, sort of like the cord around JB wrist? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 41. "Ligature Barbie" Posted by lee2 on 00:01:31 5/31/2000 now there's a scary thought. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 42. "Ligature Barbie" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 00:44:21 5/31/2000 LOL [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 43. "Can you believe tonight (as I had Barbie on the Brain)" Posted by lee2 on 00:52:39 5/31/2000 I saw a Hawaiian Ken and a Hawaiian Barbie on one of the specialty islands at our grocery store? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 44. "Hawaiin ref?" Posted by maundy on 01:44:31 5/31/2000 i don't get the joke. ligature barbie, however, was funny. i've been skipping thru the thread, but if noone's mentioned, in at least one video she got a snow white barbie (i think it was the barbie one). i think the barbie-dolls in bondage from schiller might be explained in singular's book. (seems to me that's where i went, "oh!") the mind control forum. be sure to read Dr Colin Ross's stuff. i don't remember if it's the lecture or the interview (probably both) but he talks about a Dr. Margaret Singer who fed children in an institution LSD, some for as long as two years. everything he says is documented. he filed for freedom of information records. his primary goal was to check out what some of his patients were telling him. on his webiste (rossinst.com or org) he says he's going to write a book about proejct bluebird. to be published 1997. along with all those followus to the Franklin Coverp, probably. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 47. "Maundy" Posted by lee2 on 08:46:44 5/31/2000 It wasn't a "joke" - it was an irony (I thought) - since I had never noticed Barbies at our local grocery store. In the words of the late Gilda Radner - never mind. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 46. "Does anyone have an" Posted by Holly on 07:31:03 5/31/2000 idea about the Schiller Barbies? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 58. "Holly, Shiller's Barbies" Posted by guardian on 07:33:42 6/02/2000 >idea about the Schiller Barbies? Holly, I don't have an answer but, I wanted to respond because I just hate it when I ask something and no one responds. Although I have PMPT I have not read it. Each time I start it does not hold my attention. So I don't know what he has to say on the Barbie/JonBenet connection. If there is one that is. I did however notice the hanging Barbie's in the cafe in the movie PMPT. I don't know what thats about. Guardian JfJB [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 53. "Maybe this has been" Posted by gaiabetsy on 13:24:04 5/31/2000 said before, and I skipped it or something, but I have a need to say I think Barbies represent what JonBenet was supposed to be, even as a child. And she was too young to have to have a set of tits and a waist and hips and a strut. She was just a child. Yet, it seems like her mother (especially and her grandmother) were grooming (heck, they seemed to have already accomplished it) her to be a Barbie. I think they (her relatives) probably bought her a lot of Barbie stuff. Right down their alley. In Patsy's twisted mind, it was absolutely the right thing to do to interr her with a Barbie nightgown. That picture is awful, isn't it? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 57. "gaibetsey." Posted by Holly on 20:03:53 5/31/2000 Is it possible Barbies were a tool to acclimate JB to the sex ring goals as they were with MW's niece? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] ARCHIVE REMOVE