"The suitcase Part 2" jameson's Links Timeline News Chat Forum Archives Cord Photos Email [Lobby] [Main] [Help] [Search] The Public Forum Forum Type: Public Moderator: test Time Zone: EST Printer Friendly Format Original Message "The suitcase Part 2" Posted by LovelyPigeon on May-31-01 at 07:01 PM (EST) 60 . "size & measures" Posted by Sally on May-31-01 at 06:36 PM (EST) There are several sizes in this line of suitcases. The two current blue ones are larger than the two older white ones I used to have and may still have. 62 . "thank you Sally" Posted by Nedthan Johns on May-31-01 at 06:38 PM (EST) What is the measurement of the larger one? 61 . "Sharkie" Posted by Nedthan Johns on May-31-01 at 06:37 PM (EST) Certainly. I have a small child. I need to know the exact measurements of that brand of suitcase. It would be nice to know why the killer changed his mind. Lou seems to think he did try and put her in that suitcase. I imagine a child of her stature would fit, but it would be nice to know for certain. 63 . "Ned" Posted by sharkie on May-31-01 at 06:44 PM (EST) I don't know the exact measurements, but I am sure someone might. 59 . "Myself" Posted by Nedthan Johns on May-31-01 at 06:33 PM (EST) If his intentions were to take JB with him then he would have needed something to help him through the window. Either she didn't fit, which I am still waiting to hear, or he could not get her through the window, which is what I am willing to bet. He may have just left it there and after he hid her body in the window less room, he used it to step on and get out. Would be nice to know if the Ramsey's or JAR remembered if the suitcase was locked/closed or what not. The condition of it suggests that someone opened it. 64 . "With the measurements" Posted by Afton on May-31-01 at 06:53 PM (EST) Sally said she had the luggage and if we can get a measurement of the luggage, then measure a six year old with head bent forward to the end of their tush--leg and arms will fold. But I have a feeling Smit already knows the answer and yes it does look suspicious that the fibers from the that blanket in the suitcase are found on JB. So the thinking is that he did not intend to leave her there, but couldn't make it thru the window with the suitcase, or she did not fit in the suitcase and hence the fibers. 65 . "hello and welcome Nedd" Posted by LovelyPigeon on May-31-01 at 06:54 PM (EST) I have neither a hardside suitcase or a 6-year-old child but if someone sends me one of each, with SASE large enough to return both when I'm done, I'll try Nedd's experiment. 66 . "Oops! Too LONG, please go to" Posted by LovelyPigeon on May-31-01 at 06:57 PM (EST) continued thread and resume posting. [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [USER PROFILE] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] Table of Contents Hello Lovely Pigeon and Afton, Nedthan Johns, 07:11 PM, May-31-01 Solely as step, not as container., DonBradley, 07:26 PM, May-31-01 maybe this will help?, jameson, 07:40 PM, May-31-01 I don't think he was going to , sharkie, 07:31 PM, May-31-01 3 photos of the suitcase, LovelyPigeon, 07:35 PM, May-31-01 Lovely Pigeon, ayjey, 06:53 AM, Jun-01-01 measurements, Sally, 07:35 PM, May-31-01 #3 sounds right, sharkie, LovelyPigeon, 07:40 PM, May-31-01 Sally, Julie, 07:50 PM, May-31-01 distance from clasp, Sally, 07:55 PM, May-31-01 Thank you LP for the reply re footp..., Wynona, 09:59 PM, May-31-01 Suitcase murderer, Maikai, 10:48 PM, May-31-01 duffel bag, Guppy, 07:00 AM, Jun-01-01 C'mon guys, jameson, 07:14 AM, Jun-01-01 suitcase, Pam, 07:48 AM, Jun-01-01 Compartments? , Maikai, 07:54 AM, Jun-01-01 Maikai, ayjey, 08:53 AM, Jun-01-01 had been in house, Bobo, 08:00 AM, Jun-01-01 I was wrong..., Bobo, 09:00 AM, Jun-01-01 LP, sharkie, 01:22 AM, Jun-02-01 Maikai, I searched *murder+suitcase..., LovelyPigeon, 08:48 AM, Jun-01-01 aj, Bobo, 09:11 AM, Jun-01-01 Bobo, ayjey, 09:15 AM, Jun-01-01 I agree, , Bobo, 09:25 AM, Jun-01-01 Small suitcase, salli, 10:25 AM, Jun-01-01 salli, LovelyPigeon, 10:47 AM, Jun-01-01 LP, ayjey, 11:15 AM, Jun-01-01 Suitcase experiment, Nedthan Johns, 03:19 PM, Jun-01-01 If the killer, WhiteWolf, 03:38 PM, Jun-01-01 WW, Guppy, 03:41 PM, Jun-01-01 Yes Guppy, Nedthan Johns, 04:31 PM, Jun-01-01 Suitcase, packerdog, 04:45 PM, Jun-01-01 Also, Nedthan John, 04:49 PM, Jun-01-01 I'm not getting this, Believer, 05:21 PM, Jun-01-01 NJ, Guppy, 05:29 PM, Jun-01-01 Nedthan, jameson, 06:09 PM, Jun-01-01 What else, Charlie, 06:46 PM, Jun-01-01 duffle bag, Bobo, 07:08 PM, Jun-01-01 Wacky, docG, 07:20 PM, Jun-01-01 DocG.. How Many homicides have you ..., Paco De L Riva, 07:35 PM, Jun-01-01 docg, Guppy, 08:39 PM, Jun-01-01 Lou Smit, salli, 09:03 PM, Jun-01-01 DocG - you are wrong, Sally, 09:12 PM, Jun-01-01 enlargement of suitcase top, LovelyPigeon, 09:16 PM, Jun-01-01 thanks to Nedthan & lilNedthan, LovelyPigeon, 09:25 PM, Jun-01-01 LOL, docG, 09:53 PM, Jun-01-01 me not know nuting, PDLR, 10:03 PM, Jun-01-01 Doc/LP, Sooty, 10:49 PM, Jun-01-01 docG, Sally, 11:13 PM, Jun-01-01 Doc, Sooty, 11:26 PM, Jun-01-01 Sooty, LovelyPigeon, 11:23 PM, Jun-01-01 I have decided to go with, Sweebie, 01:00 AM, Jun-02-01 LP, sooty, 01:11 AM, Jun-02-01 Doc, Spiritrain, 04:21 AM, Jun-02-01 The covers, jameson, 06:45 AM, Jun-02-01 CLOSED, please go to, LovelyPigeon, 10:49 AM, Jun-02-01 Messages in this discussion 1 . "Hello Lovely Pigeon and Afton" Posted by Nedthan Johns on May-31-01 at 07:11 PM (EST) I have little info on the suitcase, but it is my belief too that Lou knows that JB could have fit inside. I will dig out my luggage tonight, measure it and stuff my kiddie inside. She is skinny like JB, most likely she would fit. I can't imagine getting a suitcase filled with a child would be an easy task to fit through that window. He must have thought lugging her back up the stairs too risky. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 2 . "Solely as step, not as container." Posted by DonBradley on May-31-01 at 07:26 PM (EST) Aside from such minor things as the suitcase being more noticeable than a child, don't you think that if for any reason at all the perpetrator became frustrated in his intention to use the suitcase as a container, he would have flung it aside in a rage? If he wrote in the note be sure to have an adequately sized attache case, wouldn't he have taken his own advice and be sure to have located an adequately sized suitcase from the home? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 7 . "maybe this will help?" Posted by jameson on May-31-01 at 07:40 PM (EST) LAST EDITED ON May-31-01 AT 07:42 PM (EST) This was taken just a few weeks ago -- that is a yard stick. maybe some of you wizards can use that to determine the dimentions of the suitcase? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 3 . "I don't think he was going to " Posted by sharkie on May-31-01 at 07:31 PM (EST) LAST EDITED ON May-31-01 AT 07:32 PM (EST) take her out the window. I think it possible three things could have occurred to him, 1)If he took her alive and put her in the suitcase, that would be very difficult to do. She would move if she could and struggle.2)to take her lifeless body out of the home in the suitcase and that would give him time to perhaps pick up the money. He would exit the butler door. 3)to leave her in the suitcase rather than the windowless room. No one would think of looking in a suitcase, unless they brought the dogs, which as it turns out they did not. Just some of my thoughts on the suitcase. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 4 . "3 photos of the suitcase" Posted by LovelyPigeon on May-31-01 at 07:35 PM (EST) together on one page: http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeon/suitcase.html?991355649410 [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [USER PROFILE] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 12 . "Lovely Pigeon" Posted by ayjey on Jun-01-01 at 06:53 AM (EST) Thanks for the 3 pictures of the suitcase. It appears that the "shiny" part that I see in the suitcase under the window may be the outside frame (border) of the suitcase. You can barely see the blackish border in the picture with the piece of glass on top. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 5 . "measurements" Posted by Sally on May-31-01 at 07:35 PM (EST) " Posted by Nedthan Johns on May-31-01 at 06:38 PM (EST) What is the measurement of the larger one?" Nedthan, The exterior of the larger one is 30" x 20.75" x 9.5" at the largest spans. -Sally [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 6 . "#3 sounds right, sharkie" Posted by LovelyPigeon on May-31-01 at 07:40 PM (EST) At least to me, it does. Maybe he was going to hide her in the suitcase, and as you said, no one was going to look for a kidnapped child inside a suitcase sitting in plain view. If he tried and she didn't fit, maybe then he tossed her into the wine cellar room and latched the door. OR, maybe he got fibers from the articles inside the suitcase on his hands when he pulled those articles out, then decided she'd never fit, tossed them back in, half-way latched the suitcase with the comforter stuck in the edge, moved JonBenét into the windowless room, and transfered those fibers from his hands to her clothing. That might explain the fibers being on her, without her actually being placed in the suitcase. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [USER PROFILE] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 8 . "Sally" Posted by Julie on May-31-01 at 07:50 PM (EST) Thank you for explaining the suitcase. Now when I look at the 2nd picture, I can see that it does have a shiny yet cloth look to it. Thanks for clearing that up. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 9 . "distance from clasp" Posted by Sally on May-31-01 at 07:55 PM (EST) The larger one coincides with the photo in this way: The bottom-most (center of the edge) of the clasp on the right, when in the unlocked position (vertical), is 7/16" from the little piece that says "Tourister". On the smaller one, however, the clasp is actually over the "Tourister" by about 3/16" when in the unlocked position. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 10 . "Thank you LP for the reply re footprint." Posted by Wynona on May-31-01 at 09:59 PM (EST) So, the "footprint" is iffy. I thought I had stored away most of the details of evidence in the suitcase of my mind and believed my mind was getting "soft sided," as I couldn't recall anything about that evidence. Yes, this baggage looks like "American Tourister." I had Samsonite at one time--they were both competive to each other. I don't think a 6 year old would fit as the case is only about 8 or 9 inches wide. A six year old's shoulders would be at least 12-13 inches wide. As they would fit length wise from head to tush (in fetal position) the shoulders would not scrunch enough. But carry on with the experiments. Who knows? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 11 . "Suitcase murderer" Posted by Maikai on May-31-01 at 10:48 PM (EST) Well, it's not the first time someone put a body in a suitcase. The article doesn't say how big the suitcases were...but they are only SO BIG. Police identify body in suitcase MIAMI, Fla., April 17 - Police have finally positively identified the body found stuffed in a suitcase in a canal. It is the body of a missing Miramar woman, 26-year-old Rebeca Peña. On Tuesday, Peña's father said he was able to identify his daughter after police showed him a rose tattoo on the woman's body. Police also showed him a piece of paper with his daughter's name on it that had been found in the suitcase. "I think somebody crazy took my daughter," said Rafael Peña. "My wife is feeling destroyed completely. She doesn't want to talk to anybody. My son too." Family and friends are stunned by the nature of the crime. "The way this happened, with someone getting murdered, especially stuffed in a suitcase, is not something that happens every day. And that's what we don't understand because she had no enemies," said Peña's friend Sandra Echevarria. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 13 . "duffel bag" Posted by Guppy on Jun-01-01 at 07:00 AM (EST) There was an unsolved murder in Denver in which a five year old girl was found dead in a duffel bag. The Ramseys had a duffel bag, but it was stuffed into a crawl space in the basement. Does anyone know how long it was stored there? Was it ever just setting out in plain view? What I'm getting at is perhaps the killer arrived at the Ramseys expecting that duffel bag to be there, and tried to use the suitcase when it couldn't be found. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 14 . "C'mon guys" Posted by jameson on Jun-01-01 at 07:14 AM (EST) Remember that magicians have assistants who can twist and turn and fit in the smallest areas! You can push shoulders forward without breaking them. legs bend in amazing ways when they have to. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 15 . "suitcase" Posted by Pam on Jun-01-01 at 07:48 AM (EST) What a joke! I have an American Tourister suitcase just like that one. The interior has compartments. The only way you could fit a 6 year old child in it would be to hack her into very small pieces. And even then it would be tough to do. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 16 . "Compartments? " Posted by Maikai on Jun-01-01 at 07:54 AM (EST) The suitcase under the window looks like a typical hardshell case---no compartments. They only come in so many sizes. There were SEVERAL articles on the net of finding children/women in suitcases---a few were duffle bags. I don't think it's out of realm of possibilities, that someone could have thought the suitcase would hold JBR. Remember Capano? Ann Marie Fahey, who was quite tall, albeit thin, was put in a large fishing chest in one piece---and dumped in an ocean. The chest didn't look all that big to me, in the newspaper articles. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 19 . "Maikai" Posted by ayjey on Jun-01-01 at 08:53 AM (EST) If you look at the picture that Jameson posted under The Suitcase thread, post #3, the suitcase shown with the piece of glass on it is a fabric sided suitcase, not hardside. :-} [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 17 . "had been in house" Posted by Bobo on Jun-01-01 at 08:00 AM (EST) prior to the murder? Or the killer is certainly known to the Ramseys, and for sure had access to the home- sometime before the night of. Maybe they brought in tape and cord and hid it inside the suitcase, stored it there, so that the night of the murder they wouldn't have any of that on them. Maybe he had even stored a few sheets of paper from the pad in there? L I don't know. Maybe the pre-written note was stored in it? Way out there- but heck..why not? hey, am I remebering wrong? Didn't Smit say on LKL- that Fleet ALSO confirmed *where the suitcase was found, wasn't where it was normally located*? I need to go reread transcripts, eh? Well, catch y'all later then. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 20 . "I was wrong..." Posted by Bobo on Jun-01-01 at 09:00 AM (EST) it said the housekeeper confirmed that the suitcase wasn't normally kept by the window, not Fleet. BUT, it did say that maybe John and (or?) Fleet opened the window. from LKL on CNN: transcript Det Smit:"Now, later on, I believe that it was noted that this window may have been opened even by John Ramsey and Fleet White." (surprised this wasn't cleared up by Fleet's notes)and also from LKL transcript: Det Smit:"The position of that suitcase when it was first observed there, by Fleet White, was that it was directly against the wall, directly underneath that open window. " Now, I have looked at the image with the yardstick- posted by jams, and I think it is really ODD (to put it mildly) that the @#$@#@#%$% suitcase needed to be moved to *observe* that window sill. I have a suitcase that is pretty darn close (in my guesstimations) to the one that was at the scene (tho mine is softside). I also have a window that is higher, not quite as high up as the basemwent one, but, if I pretend I need to look closely at the latch part of my window's area, this seems a good approximation IMHO. Now thing is, when I place my suitcase under my window and approach with a need to better observe the latch area, I have no nag or pull at me to move the suitcase, I would imagine it less of a need (not there is ONE bit of need) if I were over 5'8. OOnly decent excuse is to look for clues under the suitcase..but if I were at a kidnapping scene, sorry, I don't think I would be moving a suitcase to look under it. But then again, maybe I'm not as bright and or as hopeful/helpful as Fleet White is, so who knows. Oh, and BTW..does anyone recall off top-of-the-head, who all knew prior to this day the basement window was broken? I recall a part in one book where John sees Fleet at the window and thunks his own head kinda deal, and says should have fixed that or whatever. Did he go into explanation why, or just felt sheepish towards Fleet looking at it? And with that comment, it almost seems to me at the time that window didn't seem too important to John, but it was important enough for Fleet to approach twice? If all I read is right, it seems Fleet was at the window more than once. Anyhoo [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 54 . "LP" Posted by sharkie on Jun-02-01 at 01:22 AM (EST) For me this makes the most sense. What is that saying? Hiding in plain sight? Sometimes this whole case feels like that. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 18 . "Maikai, I searched *murder+suitcase*" Posted by LovelyPigeon on Jun-01-01 at 08:48 AM (EST) also, and found a depressing number of dead children in suitcases If the killer tried to put JonBenét in the suitcase after she died, I have no doubt her small body could be "fitted" inside. If she were alive, with muscle tone and ligament resistance, it might be iffy. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [USER PROFILE] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 21 . "aj" Posted by Bobo on Jun-01-01 at 09:11 AM (EST) I have NEVER seen a suitcase that was soft sided and had those metal flip over type latches. If you look closely, you will also see the sm lil release button for the metal latch. :) [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 22 . "Bobo" Posted by ayjey on Jun-01-01 at 09:15 AM (EST) I'm still not convinced the 2 suitcases are the same one. One STILL looks like a hardside and the close-up of the glass piece is sitting on a fabric sided suitcase. Maybe someone set the hardside under the window to "re-enact" the placement of the suitcase. Who knows? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 23 . " I agree, " Posted by Bobo on Jun-01-01 at 09:25 AM (EST) quick look and 1st thought, they *look* different. But after I looked at each picture a few minutes, and on the photo that shows the circle around the piece of glass, well..it becomes VERY clear there is a metal keylock on it, and a metal flip latch and the release to that latch is also visable. The other two pictures, it is easier to tell it is hard side by the sheen. But the close up, well..yuck, it stinks. BUT..it IS like the picture of JBR's neck (close up of supposed stungun marksthat everyone had difficulty with at first quick glances) couldn't hardly tell what was what. Anthoo, I think if you look at it long enough, it will then become quite clear, it is indeed the same suitcase. Though I do conceed, it most certainly does appear differnt. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 24 . "Small suitcase" Posted by salli on Jun-01-01 at 10:25 AM (EST) The idea that the perp may have considered puting Jon Benet inside the suitcase to hide her body or maybe thinking to take her out of the house isn't to far fetched. I saw a program on TV about someone, a woman or a child, I can't remember which, who was smuggled out of Berlin, during the cold war, carried in a suitcase so small looking that the police didn't check even it. After that, when I see a suitcase open I always wonder if a person can fit in it. Maybe the perp saw the suitcase,remembered the same show and tried to put her in it. Could be the whole thing had turned out differently than the perp planned and he was quickly looking for a place to hide her body. Was the suitcase stored near where the paintbrushes were? Using the paint brush handle hadn't been planned in advance either. Did anyone know who had put the book and the blanket in the suitcase previously? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 25 . "salli" Posted by LovelyPigeon on Jun-01-01 at 10:47 AM (EST) We have not been given the information about who originally put the comforter, sham, and children's book in the suitcase, or when. My best guess is that it was used in JAR's dorm room, and he packed it into suitcase when no longer used, and then stored it at Ramseys' house. LHP said she put the paint tote at the foot of the basement stairs on Dec 23. That is the area where the suitcase was apparently stored that day, too. However, the paint tote was found just outside the wine cellar door on the morning of Dec 26. So it was apparently also moved after Dec 23, just as the suitcase was. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [USER PROFILE] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 26 . "LP" Posted by ayjey on Jun-01-01 at 11:15 AM (EST) Has anyone ever asked JAR if he put the blanket and sham in the suitcase? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 27 . "Suitcase experiment" Posted by Nedthan Johns on Jun-01-01 at 03:19 PM (EST) OK Folks. Here it is. Last night I got out my Unicorn suitcase (don't ask, I have never heard of the brand either) but that's what I had. It appears to be SMALLER then the one depicted in the photos. Thanks to Jameson and the yardstick, I can confirm now that it is smaller then the one shown in those photos. Plus I used a larger child. My daughter is 7. My suitcase is 23 inches in length, 15 inches in width and 71/2 inches deep. My daughter is very thin about 45 lbs, which is what i beleive they said JB was, but she looked lighter then that. My daughter fit into the suticase with no problem. Now the sides are tweed, and not hard, however, there were no protruding legs or arms from either side. You could not tell a child was in it. Plus I forgot to take out some files that were in a side pocket that I didn't discover until after the experiement. I was able to zip her up, and carry her with no problem. I would have been able to lift her up to a window. But here are my thoughts. Looking at the photos of the window, the killer would have only been able to lift her through the first part of the window, but because it's set down from the ground, he would have needed to get both himself and the suitcase up, before lifting it up to ground level. Given the size of that window, I don't think that was possible. He may have very well tried this and therefore resulting in the disturbance of dirt on that window sill. I would be interested in knowing if the bottom of that suitcase had dirt or debris on it. Now I also tried stuffing my poor child into that suitcase with a comforter around her. I used a twin size one. It bulged out the sides of the suitcase, and she complained the whole time it was hot. (I don't imagine JB was alive or awake to complain) I had trouble zipping it and it looked awkward. Here's another thought regarding the suitcase, which I think is another very important clue that points to an intruder. Here's why. If Lou can prove the Suitcase was used at some point to transport JB or was lifted into that window, to me this rules out the parent did it theory. Why would either parent do this? If one was hiding the crime from another they would not have transported her through the window they could have easily carried her out into the garrage and placed the suitcase with her body in the trunk. The suitcase therefore would only point towards an intruder if we can verify that she was indeed put inside. Also this would confirm why he chose to hide her body. He can't get both her and him through that window, and carrying her out would obviously be too suspecious. If Lou could prove that suitcase could not easily get through that window, that would make an excellent case any WHY she was hidden in the back room. The suitcase is VERY important. Jameson: Can you get a blow up of the close up of that suitcase with the glass on it? To me those other pieces look like splinter pieces of glass. Where was the window broken? Up top? If so, the glass may have very well have gotten there by the top of it scraping the top of the window pane, where the window was broke. If those are splinter pieces of glass, I think that rules out a parent staging it. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 28 . "If the killer" Posted by WhiteWolf on Jun-01-01 at 03:38 PM (EST) managed to get JBR into the suitcase, but not out the window, why would he bother to take her body out of the suitcase since she was well hidden already? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 29 . "WW" Posted by Guppy on Jun-01-01 at 03:41 PM (EST) If she were still alive at the time he made the decision to remove her from the suitcase, that would be one good reason. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 30 . "Yes Guppy" Posted by Nedthan Johns on Jun-01-01 at 04:31 PM (EST) Perhaps she was still alive. I would like to know the condition of that suitcase [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 31 . "Suitcase" Posted by packerdog on Jun-01-01 at 04:45 PM (EST) If they can tell by fibers on JB that they came from the comforter, they can tell if JB was put in that suitcase. They would be able to idenify if JB was stuffed in the suitcase by the inside, her clothes fibers and such. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 32 . "Also" Posted by Nedthan John on Jun-01-01 at 04:49 PM (EST) The could tell whether or not that suitcase was placed in the window sill. Jameson, do you have any other info on this? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 33 . "I'm not getting this" Posted by Believer on Jun-01-01 at 05:21 PM (EST) I thought that the window was broken as someone entered the basement via this route, as there are glass fragments inside the basement and on the suitcase. IF the window was used as the means for entry to the house, then how could it be that the suitcase was manipulated and moved, perhaps even stuffed with a little girl's body, yet the glass fragments are still there? If you believe that the perp broke the window on the way OUT of the house, then how do you explain the window glass shards which are somewhat visible in the photos, and which Fleet White handled and moved on the AM of the 26th? If he was able to easily see the glass under the conditions of that AM, I would tend to think that they were of average size, not teeny, that the glass was broken from the exterior inward. I need some help with sequencing here, please. Also,someone referenced the duffel bag on an earlier post in this thread. I find it to be more interesting than the suitcase in some ways, because I believe JonBenet's body could very well have fit in at least one common type of duffel bag. On the inventory list of items removed from the Ramsey's property, there was a duffel bag from crawlspace listed. I have wondered if it was a military type large drawstring bag like soldiers keep and carry their laundry to the laundromat in for the remainder of their bachelor years. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 34 . "NJ" Posted by Guppy on Jun-01-01 at 05:29 PM (EST) You know what would be nice? To find out which of our two opposing lab reports are correct, the CBI or FBI. My understanding is the CBI matched the fibers found on JBR to the blanket in the suitcase, but the FBI said the fibers on JBR didn't match anything in the house. Did the FBI overlook the blanket? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 35 . "Nedthan" Posted by jameson on Jun-01-01 at 06:09 PM (EST) LP is my guru with the photos - - I posted the best one I had of the top - - not sure what you want done to it but LP would be the one to ask. JBR was only 45 pounds - - Thanks for doing the experiment and reporting on it. No one knows if the suitcase was in the window well, I doubt it because I think the disturbance outside might have shown an edge of the suitcase sliding at an angle - the window would open only 19 inches and the suitcase would have gone in at an angle. But I think if the guy got her in the suitcase, he would have to realize that he couldn't get the suitcase and get in the window well as well. Then what? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 36 . "What else" Posted by Charlie on Jun-01-01 at 06:46 PM (EST) might the person/s who killed JB have wanted to use a suitcase for? Let's see. Maybe it was originally intended to hold stolen stuff. Wasn't there a safe sunk in the floor in one of the rooms in the basement? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 37 . "duffle bag" Posted by Bobo on Jun-01-01 at 07:08 PM (EST) "I have wondered if it was a military type large drawstring bag like soldiers keep and carry their laundry to the laundromat in for the remainder of their bachelor years. " Ditty bag, is what you are talking about, sea bag whatev. It isn't supposed to be for laundry, but you are right that IS something a bachelor might do. LOL They have mesh bags for laundry. The ditty bags/sea bags are for going off on deployments etc, it would hold a child but sure would be hard, if the child was alive- don't ya think? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 38 . "Wacky" Posted by docG on Jun-01-01 at 07:20 PM (EST) This thread is getting pretty wacky. There is NO reason whatsoever to assume anyone tried to squeeze JBR into that small, hard suitcase. This is based on sheer speculation by Lou Smit. Even if fibres from that blanket were actually found on JBR's clothing why in the world would that imply such a ridiculous attempt? Makes much more sense to assume the blanket was in contact with her prior to it being placed in the suitcase. Even if this person was idiot enough to think he could squeeze JBR into that absurdly tight space, why on Earth wouldn't he have removed the blanket first? What we have here is evidence that Lou Smit can't think straight. Which few here are willing to admit. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 39 . "DocG.. How Many homicides have you solved?" Posted by Paco De L Riva on Jun-01-01 at 07:35 PM (EST) I think you should have a little respect for a man who has solved many murder cases that others had given up on. Maybe that's what really bothers you that he'll find the intruder then all your fantasical thoeries will have all been a waste of time. Lou Smit is not delusional or crazy or whacked out.He is a person who know how to solve crimes and has atrack reacord and history of success. Could we see your resume DocG ????????? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 41 . "docg" Posted by Guppy on Jun-01-01 at 08:39 PM (EST) A forum member has already shown a girl the size of JBR will fit into a suitcase of roughly the same size as the one found in the basement. That doesn't necessarily mean JBR would fit in _the_ suitcase, but it certainly doesn't make the idea whacky. The CBI says the fibers on JBR were from a blanket. That blanket was found in the suitcase. Sounds to me like Smit could very well be on to something. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 42 . "Lou Smit" Posted by salli on Jun-01-01 at 09:03 PM (EST) IMO you're being exceedingly hasty to discount a person with 30 years experience and many solved cases, DocG. Whatever are you thinking to make a comment like that? Nothing can replace years of actual experience I don't care how smart or educated you are. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 43 . "DocG - you are wrong" Posted by Sally on Jun-01-01 at 09:12 PM (EST) >This thread is getting pretty wacky. >Even if this person >was idiot enough to think he >could squeeze JBR into that absurdly >tight space, why on Earth wouldn't >he have removed the blanket first? > >What we have here is evidence that >Lou Smit can't think straight. >Which few here are willing to >admit. The child can easily fit in the suitcase. The suitcase is actually much larger than the one used for the experiment. It is not an "absurdly tight space" as you call it. It is a BIG SUITCASE. It is clear that a six-year-old child can be put in that suitcase - NO PROBLEM. Lou Smit's thinking is a lot straighter than yours. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 44 . "enlargement of suitcase top" Posted by LovelyPigeon on Jun-01-01 at 09:16 PM (EST) http://www.geocities.com/lovelypigeon/suitcase_top_enlargement.html I'm no guru, but here's an enlargement only...no enhancements done. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [USER PROFILE] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 45 . "thanks to Nedthan & lilNedthan" Posted by LovelyPigeon on Jun-01-01 at 09:25 PM (EST) LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-01 AT 09:26 PM (EST) for the experiments. It appears that a child the size of JonBenét could fit into a suitcase the size of the one found under the window. For fibers from inside the suitcase to have gotten on JonBenét (IF they are actually consistent with some found on her) one or more things had to take place: *JonBenét had to be placed inside the suitcase *The killer had to handle the items inside the suitcase, then transfer fibers to JonBenét *Items from inside the suitcase had to come into contact with JonBenét *Items inside the suitcase had at some previous time been on the floor of the basement where JonBenét's body made contact *some other possibility that I'm overlooking [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [USER PROFILE] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 46 . "LOL" Posted by docG on Jun-01-01 at 09:53 PM (EST) I wouldn't be here if I didn't find all this amusing, folks. LP, you can enlarge that photo as much as you like, you'll never make the suitcase large enough to fit JonBenet. The degree of credulity I find on this forum is truly astounding. God I wish I were a con man, I could really clean up here. Lou Smit may have a great track record on other cases. His track record on this case is nil. ALL he's done is present evidence of reasonable doubt that one or both Ramsey's did it. I've not seen a shred of evidence or even any theorizing on his part that points to specific, flesh and blood, intruder. His basement window entry/exit theory is also dumb. As has been said over and over, "he ignores important evidence." He keeps talking about a "disturbance at the window" but never talks about some key places where there is no disturbance. None of us here are law enforcement pros, we're all a bunch of amateurs trying to think this through. But for God's sake folks, you all have brains. Use them! I call it as I see it. If an idea is absurd, it's absurd, I don't care whose putting it out there. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 47 . "me not know nuting" Posted by PDLR on Jun-01-01 at 10:03 PM (EST) me idiot...me thank you for assking mee to use brane.docG you da man! Dude I think the intelligence level in this forum is quite good. I think we are all using our brains. I like your "what has he done lately" statement about Lou Smit.What hes; done is shown that like a 3D picture soemtimes you can't see whats really there unless you refocus how you look at it.I think Lou Smit is a really smart guy with a brain. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 48 . "Doc/LP" Posted by Sooty on Jun-01-01 at 10:49 PM (EST) Doc, you asked why on earth the perp would not take the blanket out of the suitcase before trying to stuff JB in it? Well Doc, if he DID take it out first, wouldnt there still be fibres in the bottom of the suitcase that could adhere to her body? Maybe he took the blanket out...attempted to put her in..realised she wasnt going to fit...and replaced the blanket... LP~~~*some other possibility that I'm overlooking~~~ Isnt it possible the fibres were picked up from another location other than the suitcase? Its likely that the perp hid in JAR's room, possibly under the bed?. Didnt that cover come from JAR's room origionally? Was the fabric the same as that on the dust ruffle on JAR's bed? The red fibres on the tape are supposedly from Patsy's jacket, yet no intruder theorists has trouble believing that those fibres were there due to innocent circumstances...fibres to blanket..then on to tape. In other words, those fibres found their way to the basement without the source of the fibres {the red jacket} having been anywhere near the crime scene. I dont know if the perp tried to stuff JB in the suitcase, but I dont think it should be taken as a given. There are other plausible reasons why those fibres could have been on her body. Jameson...was the duffle bag in the crawlspace ever identified as belonging to a Ramsey? I have asked this several times and cant get a satisfactory answer. Its a big red flag IMO. How hard would it be to find out? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 49 . "docG" Posted by Sally on Jun-01-01 at 11:13 PM (EST) >I wouldn't be here if I didn't >find all this amusing, folks. OK, docG, let me get this right: You are here for your amusement. That is what you are saying to the "folks." >LP, you can enlarge that photo as >much as you like, you'll never >make the suitcase large enough to >fit JonBenet. That suitcase is more than large enough for a 6-yr-old child to fit in. Where is your work on how big the suitcase is and whether JonBenet could fit inside it. >The degree of credulity I find on >this forum is truly astounding. >God I wish I were a >con man, I could really clean >up here. I do have questions about your purposes and credibility. What do you hope to achieve? Also, are you A DOC??? Or do you just like the nickname or to enhance yourself. >Lou Smit may have a great track >record on other cases. His >track record on this case is >nil. ALL he's done is >present evidence of reasonable doubt that >one or both Ramsey's did it. I THINK LOU SMIT'S PRESENTATION TO SHOW REASONABLE DOUBT, AND WHAT HE WENT THROUGH AND STRIVED IN THE COURTS TO BE ABLE TO DO THAT, EARN HIM A GREAT PLACE IN THOSE WHO WORK AND CARE TO MAKE THE SYSTEM OF JUSTICE IN THE USA WORK, ALTHOUGH IT SEEMS CLEAR THAT THIS SYSTEM IS WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY FAR FROM WORKING THESE DAYS IN SOME PLACES. > I've not seen a shred >of evidence or even any theorizing >on his part that points to >specific, flesh and blood, intruder. THERE IS DNA THAT IS NOT FROM ANYONE IN THE FAMILY. >His basement window entry/exit theory is also >dumb. As has been said >over and over, "he ignores important >evidence." He keeps talking about >a "disturbance at the window" but >never talks about some key places >where there is no disturbance. >None of us here are law enforcement >pros, we're all a bunch of >amateurs trying to think this through. HOW DO YOU KNOW THERE ARE NO "LAW ENFORCEMENT PROS" HERE? > But for God's sake folks, >you all have brains. Use >them! O C'mon. The posters here all have brains and have used them and are using them! >I call it as I see it. > If an idea is absurd, >it's absurd, I don't care whose >putting it out there. Why do you say you "don't care whose putting it out there" ? Who do you THINK is "putting it out there" ? [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 51 . "Doc" Posted by Sooty on Jun-01-01 at 11:26 PM (EST) You are the only person in the universe that thinks John wrote that letter....doesnt that kinda wanna make you reassess your own intellect?? Not to mention the fact that Johns whole plan {according to Doc} hinged on Patsy NOT calling 911! Get over yourself Doc... [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 50 . "Sooty" Posted by LovelyPigeon on Jun-01-01 at 11:23 PM (EST) I don't think the comforter and sham found in the suitcase is the one that was currently being used in the guest room. I think it was either used when JAR used that bedroom as his own, or in a dorm room. The way I understand it, the items found in the suitcase were not taken from the guestroom on the 2nd floor that had previously been JAR's bedroom. It's possible those items were usually stored elsewehere in the basement, and the intruder put them in the suitcase...but that's too much of a stretch to me. Also, if the intruder took the items out of the suitcase, tried to put JBR in (maybe he didn't succeed, DOCG, but just attempting it could get fibers on her clothing), couldn't fit her or for whatever reason took her out again, then why in the heck would he put the items back in again? why not just leave them out on the floor. Or maybe that would have sparked a closer search of the basement? If the killer intended to hide the body well enough it wouldn't be found for an extended period of time, I think the suitcase would have been an excellent choice! (nah nah, docg!) [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [USER PROFILE] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 52 . "I have decided to go with" Posted by Sweebie on Jun-02-01 at 01:00 AM (EST) the FBI on this one. I find it much more likely that the CBI found "fibers that were consistent with", and then the police turned to the FBI for verification,and they found that the fibers were different. I see no good or likely reason for the perp to go looking inside a suitcase, and find it less likely that he would try to stuff JBR inside. There was already a blanket found with her, he didn't need another one. And let's face it, if you're going with the scream scenario, then having him try to stuff her in a suitcase after she has screamed is just beyond the realm of reason. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 53 . "LP" Posted by sooty on Jun-02-01 at 01:11 AM (EST) Do you know why there was no cover on the bed in the pic of JAR's room? Was it customary for Patsy to leave it to air while it wasnt being used, or where the covers taken for evidence? The picture shows where pieces were cut from the carpet, so the pic must have been taken after the lab guys were done, which could mean that the covers were also removed by them. Surely they would have taken pics before anything was touched or removed. It would be interesting to see those.. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 55 . "Doc" Posted by Spiritrain on Jun-02-01 at 04:21 AM (EST) Just how large do you think JonBenét was? I have a 6 year old. She outweighs JB by about10 lbs. She could fit in that suitcase. I think you are the one who needs to use your brain. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 56 . "The covers" Posted by jameson on Jun-02-01 at 06:45 AM (EST) I believe the covers were taken in as evidence - - listed on the evidence list we have... http://www.jameson245.com/evidence.htm the photo we have is from later - - after stuff had been taken - - like part of the carpet. [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP] 57 . "CLOSED, please go to" Posted by LovelyPigeon on Jun-02-01 at 10:49 AM (EST) continued thread [REMOVE] [ALERT] [EDIT] [SEND EMAIL] [USER PROFILE] [REPLY] [REPLY WITH QUOTE] [TOP]