Justice Watch Discussion Board "Susan Stine" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... Susan Stine, Ryder, 14:46:24, 6/14/2000 Ya mean Jamstein??, ConnieToo, 15:00:40, 6/14/2000, (#1) Could Susan and family been at the Ramseys..., Jeanilou, 16:49:10, 6/14/2000, (#20) Thanks, Nandee, 15:04:56, 6/14/2000, (#2) Yes, Seashell, 15:07:38, 6/14/2000, (#3) Seashell, Nandee, 15:14:41, 6/14/2000, (#5) Wasn't she the last one to see JonBenet alive,, Cassandra, 15:11:39, 6/14/2000, (#4) posts #2 & #3, Ryder, 15:16:18, 6/14/2000, (#6) this woman?, Nandee, 15:19:11, 6/14/2000, (#7) Nandee #7, Ryder, 15:22:38, 6/14/2000, (#8) found a pic here.., Nandee, 15:27:49, 6/14/2000, (#9) First of all, Ribaldone, 15:50:49, 6/14/2000, (#15) Nandee, Ryder, 15:32:31, 6/14/2000, (#11) No It Wasn't, La Contessa, 15:35:40, 6/14/2000, (#12) Where do the Stines live now?, pisces, 15:31:04, 6/14/2000, (#10) The SS Digger, Greenleaf, 15:42:13, 6/14/2000, (#13) SS, Denver, 16:34:17, 6/14/2000, (#18) Instinct, v_p, 16:09:52, 6/14/2000, (#16) v_p, Nandee, 16:28:48, 6/14/2000, (#17) Greenleaf, Edie Pratt, 16:40:41, 6/14/2000, (#19) Autumn Born #14, Ryder, 16:56:30, 6/14/2000, (#21) Nandee, Ryder, 17:03:01, 6/14/2000, (#22) I went to that link, Ribaldone, 17:13:40, 6/14/2000, (#23) Dr. Boeuf's expert opinion, Ryder, 17:29:24, 6/14/2000, (#24) Anyone have the A&E crock on tape?, Ryder, 17:31:37, 6/14/2000, (#25) Greenleaf #13, Ryder, 17:34:48, 6/14/2000, (#26) Yeah Ryder, Ribaldone, 17:42:37, 6/14/2000, (#27) here you go Ryder.., Nandee, 17:49:19, 6/14/2000, (#28) Thanks Nandee, Ribaldone, 18:17:25, 6/14/2000, (#29) Ryder, rico, 19:10:35, 6/14/2000, (#30) Hmmmm, v_p, 19:56:34, 6/14/2000, (#31) interesting...., Nandee, 20:01:19, 6/14/2000, (#32) rico,, starry, 20:15:35, 6/14/2000, (#33) SS, short timer, 20:26:37, 6/14/2000, (#34) Rico, Ryder, 20:43:49, 6/14/2000, (#35) Ryder and Starry,, rico, 21:26:26, 6/14/2000, (#42) Nandee & Ribaldone, Ryder, 20:54:27, 6/14/2000, (#36) Glenn Stine link, Country Girl, 21:25:41, 6/14/2000, (#41) Thank You, rico, 21:37:24, 6/14/2000, (#43) Is John a saint?, Country Girl, 22:37:36, 6/14/2000, (#45) The Stine's , momo, 04:08:08, 6/15/2000, (#46) Jaleo, Jade, 05:58:44, 6/15/2000, (#47) LOL...Sounds like they serve as, Cassandra, 06:38:57, 6/15/2000, (#48) 9ll Call, pisces, 13:46:01, 6/15/2000, (#49) It wasn't me alone, pisces, 16:52:36, 6/15/2000, (#50) pisces, Ryder, 17:51:16, 6/15/2000, (#51) Ryder ...., mandarin, 19:40:30, 6/15/2000, (#52) Ryder, Question ..., mandarin, 20:50:20, 6/15/2000, (#53) Mandarin, rico, 21:01:57, 6/15/2000, (#54) Rico ..., mandarin, 21:24:44, 6/15/2000, (#55) Mandarin, rico, 22:03:20, 6/15/2000, (#57) Ryder, socks, 21:45:09, 6/15/2000, (#56) mandarin, Ryder, 00:27:57, 6/16/2000, (#58) Passing the Buck, pisces, 07:21:46, 6/16/2000, (#60) Ryder,, Gemini, 01:14:24, 6/16/2000, (#59) Gemini, Ryder, 08:51:24, 6/16/2000, (#61) Where Are You, Lake?, shadow, 09:02:07, 6/16/2000, (#62) Ryder, chebrock, 11:08:35, 6/16/2000, (#65) mandarin, rico, Ryder, fly, 10:40:25, 6/16/2000, (#63) Ryder, Gemini, 11:14:32, 6/16/2000, (#66) I'm married to Frankg"Fly"Gemini, Edie Pratt, 11:05:45, 6/16/2000, (#64) Pisces #60, Ryder, 11:21:43, 6/16/2000, (#68) LOL Edie Pratt, Gemini, 11:21:34, 6/16/2000, (#67) Gemini, Edie Pratt, 11:28:16, 6/16/2000, (#69) Wanted to clear this up, socks, 12:05:29, 6/16/2000, (#70) socks and Edie, fly, 13:27:03, 6/16/2000, (#71) Ryder, Rico, Socks A few thoughts ..., mandarin, 22:08:03, 6/16/2000, (#72) Hello Pisces ..., mandarin, 22:30:25, 6/16/2000, (#73) ................................................................... "Susan Stine" Posted by Ryder on 16:24:45 6/14/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 16:24:45, 6/14/2000 Various posters have posted several questions or made comments regarding this particular character of the Ramsey drama. I myself have been intrigued by this lady since day 1 of my contact with this case. Unlike many of you, the FIRST real contact I had with this case was via the A&E documentary (Investigative Reports). At the time, I had no idea of just how slanted that entire documentary was and of all the debate surrounding it. That was my first intensive hour of contact with the Ramsey case. Prior to that, I had only glimpsed the pictures and headlines of the tabloids at the grocery store and had read nothing on the case at all. Anyone with an up-to-date knowledge of the case immediately recognizes the Ramsey slant in the choice of most of the testimony providers in this case. Let's see from memory: Susan Stine (quite a few clips of her talking, if memory serves) Penny and Dr. Boeuf, Jeff Ramsey (JR's brother) (was his wife on too?). Mike Bynum, (was Morgan on too?), JR's ex-wife, Lucinda, the older Ramsey kids (no faces, just voice-over), 2 reporters (Charlie Brennan & a woman - Julie Hayden? or something). Can't think of anyone else. The Ramseys themselves of course, taking up the better part of the interview. First, I would like to say this: in spite of the Ramsey slant (of which I was totally ignorant at the time) I came out of that thinking: the parents must have done it. My reasons were the circumstances, they were at home, there was no forced entry, the ransom note clearly looked bogus, the police also suspected them. That's all I knew and it led me to suspect them. But I thought: who knows and the 2 items from that documentary which caused doubt in my mind were: a] the testimony of Susan Stine and b] that of Dr. Boeuf. Initially I thought, well SHE (SS) seems to be convinced of them being "the nicest people" etc. and re: Dr. Boeuf, I thought "well, if he, the doctor says no prior sexual abuse" it must be true. BUT I also noticed 2 problematic things here: re: Dr. Beef, I noticed that his wife was also on as related to the organizing of church support for the Ramseys. So the Beefs came up 2 times. Also I noticed that Susan Stine came up more than once. I remembered thinking: "okay we've heard from a Boeuf and a Stine" buy why not other friends now? Why back to Stine? Is she the only friend who believes in their innocence? And why do we not just have the Dr. but the Dr. and the Mrs. as well. The thing started to look contrived and representative of the views of a very limited circle of people. Of course, today, I know this to be the case. Back to Susan Stine. Were I to see that documentary again, I would not be seeing SS the same way AT ALL. The best portrait we have of Susan Stine comes straight from DOI. By best, I mean the most complete. She is ever-present there. But I also think that it is the portrait which, for me, is the most damaging of this person. Of course, the Ramseys don't intend to put forth a negative portrait. It is just that, quite simply, the Ramseys are always their own worst media ennemies and in DOI as well. For the Ramseys, she appears to have been a sort of "take-charge" guardian angel, who protected them from harm and championed their cause at least as much as they did, if not more so.And it is perhaps in these last words of "if not more so" that this individual baffles me. For those of you, who have not read DOI, I will provide a summary FROM MEMORY (and encourage corrections where necessary) of what we learn of Susan Stine from DOI. Maybe others can add what I may have forgotten. After their return from the funeral in Atlanta, the Ramseys stay briefly at the friend owner of Pasta Jay's. They then go and stay for 5 months at the Stine's, i.e. until the end of Burke's school year. Keep in mind that these are the critical months during which, they are accused of not going down to the police station for questioning. Just like JR is fond of saying that Bynum took over the decision-making during the days immediately following JB's death, we also are presented with a narrative which depicts them as having sort of handed their lives over to the judgement of Susan Stine. We understand that Susan sort of takes over in administering what they all feel is needed for the Ramseys. Protection from the media is high on the priority list. And here, SS figures as the ever-creative source of new plots to trick the media. Two examples come to mind: when they discover that the media is going through the Stine garbage, SS and the Rs take great pleasure in always putting the worst-smelling fish fertilizer they could get their hands on and pouring it all over each garbage take-out for a while. Then, later when all have moved to Atlanta, there is an episode of SS donning a Patsy look-alike wig to get herself chased by the media so that Patsy can move about unnoticed. There is also some episode, whose details I have forgotten, where the police's ability to respond quickly to security measures put in place at Burke's school is tested and in which, of course, the police fails. It appears that during the 5 month Boulder stay at the Stines, SS screens out all calls from anyone that she? they? feel the Ramseys should not talk to. Soon the Stines are not only vacationing to Michigan with the Ramseys, but as everyone knows, Glen Stine will also leave his job as Finance Vice-President at the University of Colorado to go to work with JR in Atlanta. Some posters have questioned this, wondering if this was not odd. It sounds unusual to me, but that is a matter of opinion. What appears clear, however, is that there is clearly much determination on the part of the SS (note that her husband was not interviewed in the documentary) to run counter to the general tendency: she becomes the champion of not just the Ramseys and the maintaining of a friendship. She clearly appears obsessed with doing all she can to move ever closer to the Ramseys and to the heart of this case. As soon as the Rams move into her house, she sets up a list of practical and mental to-do lists which includes, at one point, the compulsory "joke" of the day at supper, to get the Rams' minds off their anguish. She takes over in the daily schedules of the Ramseys, meting out the doses of whatever ingredients she feels to be necessary to their well-being. Her opinions regarding moves with the police, media and acquaintances are ever-present and apparently ... always followed. She becomes known to the BPD as the Ramseys "pit bull". It is told that she starts her day on the internet. BTW, I believe that she still is starting and ending her days that way, with much presence in-between and around the clock ... but that's another story. From DOI, we learn that she follows all Ramsey-related media coverage and appears to be constantly in search of the latest ploy to champion the Ramsey cause. There is an incident in Michigan, related by Patsy, which has some stranger (female artist) attempting to befriend the solitary and anguished PR. SS is suspicious of this woman from the start, whereas Patsy insists on her naivety in going forward with this friendship. BUT, of course, even as we read DOI, the end of this story appears predictable. Susan was right and the friendly stranger turns out to be yet another media hound. Lastly, to the best of my recollection, when the Ramseys were on LKL speaking of how "friends" had told them that the Whites had been acting "odd", SS is identified in DOI as being a source for this judgement regarding the Whites. In addition, one of the other books (Thomas or Schiller, can't remember) mentions that early on, SS was making calls to either Mrs. Fernie or Mrs. Walker and stating that either people were WITH the Ramseys or AGAINST them and that, in keeping with this perspective, she was expounding negative views regarding the Whites. It sounded very much like, SS viewed the Whites as Ramsey enemies #1. The last I heard reported of Susan Stine was that she was the one handing out pamphlets at the door during the Ramsey press conference. All of the above lead me to believe that this woman is a bit of a curiosity because of her clear desire to stay close to the Ramsey case. The uprooting of a family, particularly when the husband had an upper administration engagement at a university is certainly thought-provoking. And the above stories reported by the Ramseys in their book, certainly make of SS anything but an average personality. She is clearly the ultimate Ramsey crusader, offering support well beyond the call of duty, well beyond the call of a typical friendship. I mentioned elsewhere, that when I finished reading DOI, the one character which MOST figured in my mind, certainly much more than JonBenet, was Susan Stine. But I think that the center stage position she occupies in my perceptions of the Ramsey case, stem almost exclusively from DOI. And so I would be interested in knowing how posters who HAVE read DOI may differ in perspective regarding SS as opposed to posters who HAVE NOT read the Ramsey book. One thing is for certain, SS's stance on this, makes her about as objective as the Ramseys themselves.And it is not surprising that in DOI's list of acknowledgement, the Stines occupy a prominent place. _________ End of SS narrative _____________ Questions: The questions which have come forth from posters involve factual and opinion-related issues. 1] One of the "factual" question which comes to mind, involves SS as the last person to have seen the Ramseys before the death of JB. I have now read that SS only saw and talked to Patsy. In this account, Patsy alone went to the Stine's door to speak to her. Yet I seem to remember from the A&E piece that Stine makes comments about the "family being excited and bubbly" about their upcoming trip etc. There was also some statement about Burke saying that JB had accompanied her mother to the door to deliver a gift. Wouldn't this have been the Stines? Particularly since although in DOI, I believe it is stated that it was their intention to drop off gifts at 2 houses (the Walkers?) they decided that it was too late and kept 1 of them. Wouldn't this just leave Susan Stine to back up the rough time of arrival at the Ramsey home? 2] Elsewhere we have hypothesized that the Burke-did-it theory is not very feasible because a child would talk sooner or later. But since Burke is the same age as the Stine's son, couldn't there have been a motivation to keep these 2 together as much as possible, perhaps to control as much as possible, info being linked by Burke. Just a thought. 3] And of course, perhaps more in the realm of opinion, there is the issue of the entire Stine family following the Ramseys to Atlanta. I would agree with those of you who have found this strange. 4] Lastly, I have elsewhere mentioned that any future falling out between the Ramseys and the Stines would no doubt be disastrous for the Ramseys, since SS is the epitome of the insider here. I can't begin to even imagine a possible parting of ways here, after all of this. 5] Thinking back to my Foster thread, I have also gone on to wonder about the relationship between SS, portrayed as a daily internet user and the swamp. Any ideas? [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "Ya mean Jamstein??" Posted by ConnieToo on 15:00:40 6/14/2000 They are as one... Blindly accepting, or being paid for the hoo haa! I believe that jams hat was being passed around within the Ramsey circle of friends. What a blowout! I still wonder what was in the email Burke sent to a friend that day. What did he say?? Any clues to support his story?? I think NOT! 'Course this is my personal, private opinion. LOL [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 20. "Could Susan and family been at the Ramseys..." Posted by Jeanilou on 16:49:10 6/14/2000 the night of the murder. I read someone on JW about the possibility of 6 people were in the house that night. Could the 6 be John, Patsy, Burke, JonBenet, Susan and her husband, or her son? It would take an awful lot for me to pick up my family and move cross country even for my best friends. I wonder if Susan is the person Patsy refer to when she said on the killer and the person the killer confessed to knows the truth. And yes, during my entanglement with the swamp, I noticed the "B" hat and the fact they claim to be a close friend of the family. Could easily be SS. And as far as the Jams "hat" being passed around, according to hir, this is not allowed but then I guess the moderator has hir own set of rules. (LOL. I learned a new term today HIR) If the Stines were/are such great friends, why were they not called that fateful morning. The 1st people called were the Fernies, and then the Whites. Why not the Stines? And is it me, or have the Fernies been very quiet about all this Ramsey business. Maybe Susan and her husband took the polygraphs for the Ramseys? Hmmmmmmm? LOL What is this about e-mail that Burke sent to a friend? Does anyone know more about this e-mail? Great post, btw Ryder. I am always impressed with your posts. Jeani [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "Thanks" Posted by Nandee on 15:04:56 6/14/2000 Great post!! Was SS the woman holding Patsy up during the photo op at the church? I know very little about this woman, but I'm sure by the time this thread is done... we will have to add an "s" to her name Saint Susan Stine! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "Yes" Posted by Seashell on 15:07:38 6/14/2000 That was the "pit bull" holding up the purveyor of bull. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "Seashell" Posted by Nandee on 15:14:41 6/14/2000 Thanks for clearing that up for me. Now I can put a picture to the name. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "Wasn't she the last one to see JonBenet alive," Posted by Cassandra on 15:11:39 6/14/2000 besides the family, I mean? Does she still have that awful punk hairdo? Yikes! Cassie [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "posts #2 & #3" Posted by Ryder on 16:20:17 6/14/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 16:20:17, 6/14/2000 I'm not sure if I know which shot you are referring to. Your question sent me to a shot of Patsy walking out of the church with a veil and a woman propping her. That was not SS, I believe. edited to add: from posts below, that woman is Barbara Fernie. Thanks Ribaldone and La Contessa for the right info. I have only seen Susan Stine on the A&E Ramsey documentary. Glasses, short blond hair. I don't recall seeing her at the church thing unless we are talking about 2 different episodes. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "this woman?" Posted by Nandee on 15:19:11 6/14/2000 [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 8. "Nandee #7" Posted by Ryder on 15:22:38 6/14/2000 No, that's not her. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "found a pic here.." Posted by Nandee on 15:27:49 6/14/2000 http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer/primer1_fam.html [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "First of all" Posted by Ribaldone on 15:50:49 6/14/2000 let me say EXCELLENT POST Ryder. I can't say much more now cuz I'm at work. I agree that Susan Stine is one of (if not THE) most facsinating character in this case. She is extremely bizarre. What I wanted to say is that the person in the photo with Patsy is Barbara Fernie. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 11. "Nandee" Posted by Ryder on 16:18:13 6/14/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 16:18:13, 6/14/2000 That's her in the link you posted. Wish the picture was clearer. A&E doc. is the best place to look and listen to her. But there are other places... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 12. "No It Wasn't" Posted by La Contessa on 15:35:40 6/14/2000 The woman holding PR up at the memorial service was Barbara Fernie. Susan Stine is the woman with the very, short blonde hair, in the A&E Special, who said: "The Ramseys are the nicest people I have ever met." [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. "Where do the Stines live now?" Posted by pisces on 15:31:04 6/14/2000 Are they in the same neighborhood as the Ramseys? Do Doug and Burke still go to school together? Yes I have to say SS and husband GS gave up alot to join the Ramseys in GA? I cannot understand why he gave up his position at the U. I know from reading the books that Judith Phillips was the one that said that Susan was the protector of Patsy and that Roxy Walker and Susan Stine would do what ever Patsy said. It does seem that there was a division between the Phillips/Whites and Walkers/Stines. Was this before JB's death? Is there a connection with John and Glenn being in the same men's religion group? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. "The SS Digger" Posted by Greenleaf on 15:42:13 6/14/2000 Years ago, I knew a very wealthy businessman and his wife. (I'll call them "Bill" and "Jane.") My husband was their company lawyer. There were a handful of close knit "friends," who were ever on the ready to "accommodate" this rich couple. There were those who would do almost anything to get in their good graces. My neighbor was a CEO of a medium sized local business. He and his wife (I'll call them "Gold" and "Digger.") were so anxious to get into this "inner circle," that they (you're not going to believe this) volunteered to take Jane and Bill's childrens' pet rabbit out for a walk every evening. You cannot imagine how silly they looked. When I think of SS I think of "Digger." Ryder, your analysis and observations of "SS Digger" are worthy of a print out. Your post was beyond excellent. I stand in awe of your writing talents. Greenleaf [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "SS" Posted by Denver on 16:34:17 6/14/2000 SS's image can be found on Digerati's version of the SlimeLine under Who's Who at: http://members.tripod.com/~JamesonTimeLine_/jammyslimeline.html [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "Instinct" Posted by v_p on 16:09:52 6/14/2000 I guess I have never been to the red herring web page before, so this was the first time I'd seen the picture of Dr. Beuf. My very first instinct, just based on his looks and expression, is that he and PR were probably having an affair. This would explain a lot. My very first instinct when I looked at the picture of SS was the same damn thing - I think she and Suzi Q are "closer" than your average bears. Seriously, does the Dr. look like a player to anyone else? Or has this already been discussed before, (as I reach for my newbie-beanie). Wasn't there a rumored affair, (Pats). IMO IMO IMO IMO V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 17. "v_p" Posted by Nandee on 16:28:48 6/14/2000 Yep... Funny, but I just looked at his picture for the first time and got the creeps..... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 19. "Greenleaf" Posted by Edie Pratt on 16:40:41 6/14/2000 FOFLMAO!!! That is now my favorite of all stories I've read here at JW. You crack me up:-) Ryder, your post was fantastic, and you managed to zoom in on some interesting aspects of SS that I'd overlooked before. Especially her self appointed "handling" of Patsy's affairs. We should all have a SS greeting us at the door with paper and slippers in mouth,lol! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 21. "Autumn Born #14" Posted by Ryder on 16:56:30 6/14/2000 Funny you should say that. I almost NEVER even lurk at the swamp, and yet the very few times that I was there, I came to the same conclusion as you. Of course the problem with saying things like that or even things like, just as an example, I believe PR posts at WS, is that by the time we go back there, she will have moved down the alphabet and be "C". BTW, I think that she posts closer to us than that. Just a hunch. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 22. "Nandee" Posted by Ryder on 17:03:01 6/14/2000 Check out Denver's post for a better pic of SS. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 23. "I went to that link" Posted by Ribaldone on 17:20:39 6/14/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 17:20:39, 6/14/2000 and my first impression when I saw the Stines was that Susan was Glen . . . seriously. My eye just quickly caught her picture before I focused on the double picture image and I thought she was Glen. LOL! The funny thing is I know very well what Susan Stine looks like . . . unfortunately. But I glimpsed so quickly she looked like a man. LOL. Ryder, I noticed too on the Crock that the same people kept cropping up. And most obviously missing were all (or any) of Patsy's family. I think that really says alot. I think they were "banned" from the video because Crazy Aunt Pam and Nedra, ruler of the darkside, would surely open their yaps and say exactly the wrong thing. Also, where WAS Glen Stine? It did seem odd that he wasn't on. Maybe he's just camera shy. Or, maybe he wants to keep his job a while longer. (thrusting himself into the national spotlight wouldn't be good for business) And what about Roxie Walker? I thought she was a loyal follower. I also thought the fact that Mrs. Barf was in it showed that Dr. Barf is not unbiased in his opinion of the Ramseys. The two couples are obviously friends. Otherwise, Mrs. Barf wouldn't have been included in the video. If the Rams had a strictly professional (and friendly) doctor/patient relationship with Beuf, it would most likely have been with JonBenet and Patsy. In that context he could have appeared in the video to give his unbiased professional medical opinon. The fact that they are all so chummy really muddies the waters as to his professional opinion. It really doesn't matter to me though, becaused biased or not, I don't agree with his opinion. Too many other experts (which he most definitely is NOT -- most pediatricians are not experts on vaginas) have concluded the opposite of what Beuf said. I have so many other thoughts and perceptions about the Crock, but I can't remember all of them right now. I'd have to watch it for a refresher. I just love to rewatch it every so often and see how many NEW things I can pick up on. Every time I do it, I find lots of things I didn't notice before. It's really quite fun. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 24. "Dr. Boeuf's expert opinion" Posted by Ryder on 17:29:24 6/14/2000 Ribaldone, I also think that the presence of his wife on that documentary suggests to me that he is far from being an umbiased expert on this matter. That is why, I've never thought much of JR's constant allusions to him as countering the prior sexual abuse evidence. Again here, you would think that if Dr. Boeuf's opinion regarding that was REALLY sound, the Ramseys would refer to other expert opinion. Why always the same biased one? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 25. "Anyone have the A&E crock on tape?" Posted by Ryder on 17:31:37 6/14/2000 I'm interested in knowing exactly what SS says in the A&E documentary about the Ramseys' short visit by her house on the 26th. Does anyone have the transcript of that exchange. Shouldn't be very long. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 26. "Greenleaf #13" Posted by Ryder on 17:34:48 6/14/2000 That was a good story. I guess that the moral is that when money talks, dignity walks. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 27. "Yeah Ryder" Posted by Ribaldone on 17:42:37 6/14/2000 I do. I'll check it out tonight as soon as I can kick my husband out of the family room so I can use the big TV. That should happen in about 30 minutes -- just as soon as the NBA game starts. I mean please. He can certainly watch that game in the other room while I tend to important matters. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 28. "here you go Ryder.." Posted by Nandee on 17:49:19 6/14/2000 ANNOUNCER: On their way home around 9 PM, they dropped off gifts. Susan Stein and her husband were the last people known to have seen the family before the murder. SS: They came to our house and I talked to Patsy for awhile maybe 10 or 15 minutes and they all seemed perfectly normal. They were all the same - bubbly about Christmas and about where they were going and we, my husband and I, waved good-bye to them as they were leaving and that was the last time we saw them as an intact family. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 29. "Thanks Nandee" Posted by Ribaldone on 18:17:25 6/14/2000 You were a little too late to save my husband -- he's already been booted! But you saved me some time. Susan Stine certainly does IMPLY that she saw the whole famdamily that night. I wonder if she did. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 30. "Ryder" Posted by rico on 19:15:39 6/14/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 19:15:39, 6/14/2000 your observations regarding SS are right on target; wish we knew more about her and GS. Interestingly, they were not close friends with the R's (JR said as much) until after the death of JBR. Some info I will share with you about the Stines may help clarify some of your queries. First, the Stines made no great sacrifice moving to Atlanta. Susan Stine who was also employed by CU as Director of Planning and Research ended her position as noted in the minutes of a Board of Regents meeting. No reason was given as far as why her job ended; just a brief note that her term had ended (and apparently wasn't being renewed). So by October 1996, SS was no longer employed. As Director of Finance, Glenn Stine made little more than 100,000. He also received a 18,000 bonus (that was not authorized by the Board of Regents) from an outgoing univ. President which caused quite an outrage in the press. During his tenure CU came under increasing criticism over financial matters, namely budget spending for consultants and other items which reflected poorly on the new univ. President. GS left CU shortly after his wife. In a brief press article the university announced he had tendered his resignation to pursue a position with a new start-up firm. They did not disclose the name of the venture, but it was later learned that the job was with JR's new business, Jaleo North American. One can speculate that this may have been very good timing for GS: whether or not he was under pressure at CU is unknown to me (so far) but it seems reasonable that the position with JR was indeed much more lucrative financially. A little more background: prior to accepting a position at CU, GS and SS both worked at the Pew Higher Education Research Foundation which is a part of the Pew Charitable Trusts in Pennsylvania. I have read some publications which SS contributed to and was not very impressed. When I contacted the Foundation they told me little other than GS and SS no longer worked for the Trusts but they did have her email address and would further any correspondence to her directly. In short Ryder, I believe the S's are little more than opportunists. Jaleo was apparently a failure and GS has taken the money and gone on to greener pastures. At one time he had a bio on a web site, Kaludis Consulting Group, and he may still be hiring-out with that company. http://www.kcg.com/Associates_Stine/glenn_stine.html There is more to the Stines, and they do deserve much more scrutiny. Hope this info clears up some of what you're looking for. And I hope I will be posting more on the S's in the near future. JfJBR P.S. Re "is 'B' Susan Stine at the swamp?" A good guess is she posts under more than one hat! LOL [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 31. "Hmmmm" Posted by v_p on 19:56:34 6/14/2000 >>As Director of Finance, Glenn Stine made little more than 100,000. He also received a 18,000 bonus <<< $118,000.00 Hmmmmm V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 32. "interesting...." Posted by Nandee on 20:01:19 6/14/2000 "P.S. Re "is 'B' Susan Stine at the swamp?" A good guess is she posts under more than one hat! LOL" Maybe LAKE? It would explain the anger and outrage in the posts. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 33. "rico," Posted by starry on 20:15:35 6/14/2000 Isn't that interesting????? The link you provided doesn't work. Or perhaps it did work when you posted it, but someone has quickly taken it down... Thanks for the info on G & S Stine. I am curious as to how and why you have such information, though. No flame intended, just curious. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 34. "SS" Posted by short timer on 20:26:37 6/14/2000 I think SS thinks PR is the RamFam's pet rabbit. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 35. "Rico" Posted by Ryder on 20:43:49 6/14/2000 I read your post with great interest. That was very informative for me and the sort of background I wondered about in trying to understand the dynamics here. I had found interesting that this guy was the Financial Director of a university. Not the first time that this dimension of university affairs comes under attack, probably not the last either. Have been witness to much of the sort of scenarios you describe. But I have a question: You mention SS publications. What sort of publications were these? The sort of position you describe her has having held at CU - was it a tenured professorial position or something administrative? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 42. "Ryder and Starry," Posted by rico on 21:32:48 6/14/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 21:32:48, 6/14/2000 First, if you do a search on Susan B. Stine you will get enough hits to wade through for months, however, that is how I came across a paper she did for the Education Foundation I mentioned. Also, you can access Board of Regent meeting minutes at CU. As for other info, I paid to retrieve archival material from the Denver newspaper which covered the controversy over the bonus CU directors were given. Kaludis Associates is still in business but I may have the url wrong. Type in Kaludis Consulting Group and you will get a match. Then click on associates and Glen Stine's name appears and you can view his extensive resume. The information is out there; it just takes alot of digging! Happy sleuthing. JfJBR Almost forgot: SS position was administrative, Ryder. Exact title, Director-Planning and Institutional Research. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 36. "Nandee & Ribaldone" Posted by Ryder on 20:54:27 6/14/2000 Thanks for the efforts regarding the A&E documentary. I was interested in knowing whether what was said corresponded to the latest Ramsey version of thing i.e. JB asleep, only Patsy going to the door. It could go both ways. Funny though, how the pronouns always matter. Wondering who the "they" are who are bubbly. Hard to imagine JR being bubbly, even if his life depended on it. Burke? Clearly Patsy is at least 1 of the "they". I realize that this may be splitting hairs. There is another interesting moment in the A&E, if memory serves. I believe that it is there that JR says that he wasn't aware of any bedwetting problem but is corrected by PR. I could never figure out how everybody and their uncle knew that JB had a problem, except JR. I thought this was quite revealing about him: "Problem? What problem?" Think he is still doing it. Nandee: I think so too. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 41. "Glenn Stine link" Posted by Country Girl on 21:25:41 6/14/2000 Try this one: http://www.kcg.com/Associates/Glenn_Stine/glenn_stine.html [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 43. "Thank You" Posted by rico on 21:37:24 6/14/2000 Country Girl for the correct link to GS. Also, I should point out that it was lizzie who found that link on GS and shared it with me in an effort to get me on the right trail! Thanks liz. JfJBR [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 45. "Is John a saint?" Posted by Country Girl on 22:39:00 6/14/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 22:39:00, 6/14/2000 Ladies, how many of your husbands would patiently sit in a car with two children while you chitchat with a friend for 10-15 minutes on Christmas night when you have an early morning flight? Not mine! He'd probably be giving me that "husband look" to get me moving. I'm not even packed for my flight tomorrow! LOL! I can't seem to drag myself away from JW long enough! Great thread!! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 46. "The Stine's " Posted by momo on 04:08:08 6/15/2000 are being used by the Ramsey's and the Ramsey's are being used by the Stine's. The SS Ship and her crew uprooted and moved to Atlanta even when Ramsey's were the prime suspects in the murder of their daughter. The Ramsey's needed them to fill their needs. Glen for John, Susan for Patsy, and their son for Burke. The Stine's did it for their own selfish reasons. SS has a need to take care of Patsy, that's obvious. The Stine's son would be there for Burke to take up his time and keep his mind off of the murder. Is Glen still working for the company even though John is no longer there? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 47. "Jaleo" Posted by Jade on 05:58:44 6/15/2000 Jaleo closed their Atlanta office and moved North American Headquarters to Seattle, WA in April 1999. Bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1999/4049cram.html [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 48. "LOL...Sounds like they serve as" Posted by Cassandra on 06:38:57 6/15/2000 varlet and lady of the privy chamber! LOL Cassie [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 49. "9ll Call" Posted by pisces on 13:46:01 6/15/2000 on the 23rd Christmas Party is the beginning of SS taking charge. She is the one who answered the police who responded to the house (I think she answered without opening the door and said that the call was placed in error). She is still in charge to this date (passing out info at the LD Press Conference). She also placed a 911 call when the Globe Reporter was at their house and kept his wallet. She is as confusing as the Rams in her behavior. I am glad that you started this thread. I really enjoy reading your posts as well as the input that follows from all JW posters. I think we all need to start to look at all aspects of this case with clear eyes to see what motivates all the players involved. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 50. "It wasn't me alone" Posted by pisces on 16:52:36 6/15/2000 When I was re-reading DOI, I came upon the 911 calls. In respect to the 23rd 9ll call, I find it surprising that SS responded to the police officer but looking upon all their actions, they do not seem to ever do anything on their own that is solely their own responsiblity. Even flying, John states that it is easier to have Mike as a co-pilot. When JB is missing they call friends in , John states that they are the ones that can best address her needs. They do not "rent" a place in CO so BR can finish school, etc. but rely on friends. So the Steins and Ramseys do seem to fulfill each others needs. I think the other friends grew tired of the Ramsey needs. What needs of the Steins, do the Ramseys fulfill? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 51. "pisces" Posted by Ryder on 17:51:16 6/15/2000 Money? What do YOU think? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 52. "Ryder ...." Posted by mandarin on 19:40:30 6/15/2000 I can't remember when I have read such an interesting post. You've got the wheels in my head spinning out of control. I'll have to print out your post and respond with some better thoughts later, but for now ... Could Glen & Susan Stine have had any connection to Mike Tracy (? not sure that's the right name). In any event, as I understood it, the guy you produced the A&E doc was originally from the same university (UC). Since Glen was in finance, did he & Susan arrange to do the A&E crock through Mike? Rico's info about SS, Glen's annual salary & bonus (100,000 plus 18,000) got me to ponder about the ransom note's 118K. SS seems to be so heavily woven into the Ram's family fabric, that I now look at her from a much larger vantage point than I once did. Could it be possible that she helped with the rambling bizarre ransom note. Could the Stines have been called around midnight or before in an effort to help stage the cover-up? Something really stinks about SS. I realize they are obviously opportunists but perhaps there is more to them than meets the eye. I'm wondering why the Stines were not invited to the White's at Christmas - had there always been some sort of rivalry between them prior to December 25/96? And I was under the impression that Glen Stine did not leave the university until afer the death of Jonbenet - am I misinformed? Rico (? I think) seems to give the impression that he left before Christmas '96 - I don't think so. Your point about the Ram's son and the Stine's son gives some credence to the theory that perhaps there is a deeper reason for their undying loyalty to the Rams. These two families seem to be stuck together like glue. BUT, I really was impressed with your thoughts that the Rams are taking a chance, BIG TIME, by relying on the Stines as their proverbial life long front men. It had never occurred to me that one day, their lap dogs may turn on them. Now, wouldn't that be front page news ... I had always thought that one day in the not too distant future, that Burke would be the weak link during a rebellious teenage year. Again Ryder, A+++++ for your post! Regards, Mandarin [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 53. "Ryder, Question ..." Posted by mandarin on 20:50:20 6/15/2000 I've read your other thread re Foster and it is, as usual, very insightful. I'm wondering if 'lake' is Susan Stine. You mentioned that PR and SS are quite different in personality and expressiveness, etc. My feeling is that PR makes the bullets and Stine fires them. But you're right that they both certainly would have different sounding posts and 'lake' sounds very loud, ordinary and abrasive like SS. Patsy, on the other hand, is the iron hand in the velvet glove. I watched her very closely on LKL and it was obvious to me that she was cleverly trying to manipulate Steve T by complimenting and pouring oil over his foibles and loss of career, etc. Make no mistake, I believe that way down deep, she is quite frightened of this young man. I have a strong gut feel what hat PR uses on this forum, but I will not air my opinion, lest I get blown right off the planet Earth. They (PR & SS) really do seem to enjoy playing games of hide and seek, sleuthing and whatever else the two of them do 24/7. I BELIEVE that PR, SS and Jams are a constant presence on this forum and I believe SS or Jams may be "subbing" for Patsy when one of her many TV engagements takes her away from her day-to-day net activities. SS, Pats and Jams probably have spatulated fingers from all the keybanging they do on the net, especially on this forum. You see, there are 3 people I have always suspected of being the prime daily Ram posters - you can always tell who they are. One posts sharp and venomous attacks, Jams points out all the Ram inside info she has and PR uses the velvet glove/iron hand approach to manipulate JW posters into believing she is genuinely unbiased and seeks only justice and of course, does not like to slander the Rams. Regards, Mandarin [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 54. "Mandarin" Posted by rico on 21:01:57 6/15/2000 Yes, GS left CU early 1997, after JBR's death. It was SS whose position ended in October 96. And I think you are right regarding the Stines and the Whites; they obviously were not close if even friends. JfJBR [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 55. "Rico ..." Posted by mandarin on 21:24:44 6/15/2000 Do you know if Mike Tracy (A&E Crock) producer, director (?) is connected to SS & GS. They all seem to have been "in with the bricks" at the University of Colorado, in a financial and influential way. Did they approach Mike Tracy or could it have been the other way around. SS does seem to be the director of the millennium (for the Rams anyway) and GS seems to have had control of the university purse strings. Any comments/answers? BTW thanks for verifying my thoughts that GS left UC in '97. He followed the money trail. As well, could he have left because something was coming down the tubes because of his and his wife's heavy involvement in the Ramsey case, e.g. putting up front money for Mike Tracy maybe or something along those lines? Regards, Mandarin [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 57. "Mandarin" Posted by rico on 22:03:20 6/15/2000 Mike Tracey, as a journalism professor at CU, was certainly acquainted with SS and possibly GS; whether their relationship was also on a more social or personal level, it's possible. Nevertheless, I am reasonably certain either MT contacted SS to elicit her support for his croc or SS contacted him and offered her assistance with the R's should he undertake the project. FWIW, my mother is from Leicester, England and I have alot of relatives there. Apparently, MT had to shop his croc there because (you might well guess!) there was "conditions" attached!LOL The British producer subsequently tried to sell the croc here to several networks for a hefty price and they balked so it finally went to A&E for much, much less than hoped for. FWIW, the croc was well-received overseas; obviously the Brits know little about this case so the R's came off looking "put upon". I think most case-followers know that if MT was truly presenting an unbiased and objective documentary MT would not have had the cooperation and access to the R's and Susie! BTW, SS did an academic paper entitled, "The Perils of Tabloid Journalism". I'll try to find it for you. JfJBR [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 56. "Ryder" Posted by socks on 21:45:09 6/15/2000 Great, Great post!!!, and money, yes!!!. I am wondering with a salary and bonus of $118,000 at CU how the Stines managed to buy two homes in Atlanta. One costing $888,000 with the amount financed at over $500,000. Large downpayement. Then the other home, and as far as I can tell it is still listed in their name, but I could be wrong, cost something over $550,000 with the amount financed something like over $300,000. Where did they get the money for these downpayments, and what are they doing with 2-homes in Atlanta. Also an office listed to Glen Stine at 3333 Peachtree in Atlanta. Notice his resumé states he went to Michigan State in 1970. Wasn't John at Michigan state about the same year? (See John's depo of Oct. 98) Then in 77-78 Stine is in Ma. Susan Shufelt Bennett aka Jameson was born and raised in Pittsfield/Dalton area of Ma. Then in 72-76 Glen Stine, (and he is spelling it with one n now) was in Ohio. Didn't John work for a company during this time, whose headquarter's were in Ohio, or was it Patsy's dad? I know ST and another detective went to Ohio to investigate something to do with the Ramsey case, according to his book. I guess I am asking could it have been possible for Glen and John to have meet in Michigan, and Susan Stine and Sue B to have meet in Ma. Susan B claims to have been a Justice of the Peace in Dalton Ma in 83-87. Claims she performed the marriage ceremony for over 100 people. What year and where did the Stines marry? socks/midnite [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 58. "mandarin" Posted by Ryder on 00:27:57 6/16/2000 I found your posts very insightful. I certainly agree with this: the main Ramsey players post on all forums and they do have very different strategies. Your description of these is very good. I also observe 2 main tactics: one is sheer intimidation. My very first post over at WS was immediately noticed and answered with much aggression. The sort of reaction which would discourage a first-time poster. But I persisted and began to notice that every time a new poster expressed views against the Ramseys, the same hat would immediately jump on them with intimidating speech. Strategy #1 menacing, insulting and direct. Strategy #2 could easily be confused with a typical Ram supporter. It's approach is more manipulative. There is an attempt to suggest that this is an "undecided" individual, open to everything, who above all will not judge until all the facts are in, who insistently claims that no one can imagine what it is like to be in the Ram's shoes. In this strategy, the poster will say something like "I really don't know if this is true, but I believe I read somewhere that ...." and then we're off and running with EVERY SINGLE argument that the Ramseys parade in their interviews, at times worded with exactly the same idiomatic expressions. No more, no less. The exact same argument." But the bottom line is that there are 2 tactics: the hard approach and the soft approach. There is still another occurrence, which I have noticed, with the "soft approach": one which I would describe as "under the influence" - the equivalent of slurred speech and difficulty in finding the exact keys to punch. Moreover, spelling takes some weird twists and turns. Sophisticated words are spelled correctly, common words are not. It makes for interesting even if bizarre reading. I also think you said this well: one fabricates the bullets, and the other shoots them. There is a study to be done here about "passing the buck" in terms of placing all responsibility for one's decisions, acts and troubles on someone else. A huge list could be drawn here of both allies and adversaries. Of course, the latter recognizes this, but I am surprised that the former have not had enough of that tactic. For example, I wonder just how many more times, even Bynum can be expected to hear all the responsibility for the lawyering up be thrust exclusively on his shoulders. Even if I had had his convictions, and interests early on, I think that I would be sick of hearing that. Distraught or not, these were adults who must take responsibility for ALL their actions and their choices. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 60. "Passing the Buck" Posted by pisces on 07:21:46 6/16/2000 Ryder, Thanks for expressing so well what I was relating in my post of "never alone". What I find especially peculiar about this is that they both are this way. I think that is what they are doing now but I think that this has definitely been a characteristic of John's for a long time. In ST's book, it is implied that when John had his affair in his first marriage that it was really Jody Roberts' fault not his. He really did not want to be in that "fatal attraction" relationship. I would really like someone who has the professional training really look into this aspect of the Ramseys. I think it would reveal more about the reason for JB's tragic death. I think as long as they have others around taking care of their needs they really do not have to see into themselves or each other. Are they getting psychiatric care at this time? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 59. "Ryder," Posted by Gemini on 01:14:24 6/16/2000 and still and yet, you have us undecided fence-sitters who have nothing whatsoever to do with the Ramseys or any of the players in this case. It's good to be aware of various possibilities, but a mistake to see bugaboos where they aren't ... just makes things more confused. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 61. "Gemini" Posted by Ryder on 08:54:09 6/16/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 08:54:09, 6/16/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 08:52:21, 6/16/2000 Although I do not consider myself a "fence-sitter" or "undecided" with regards to the issue of whether an intruder came into that house, I think myself fully capable or recognizing a discourse of TRUE indecision. This type of stance is not any more difficult to identify than the position of those on either sides of that fence. While I am not undecided regarding certain issues, I am regarding others, and I think anyone who would carefully read my posts would understand exactly WHAT, in my beliefs, is "decided" and what remains "undecided". If I claimed to be "undecided" and then proceeded to ALWAYS point out arguments AGAINST Ramsey innocence, would YOU consider me "undecided"? Remember that, in this medium, a poster's position is equal to the sum total of her/his posts. Certainly, in the forums, most posters are eager to identify the issues of this case upon which they have strong beliefs AND those issues about which they are not ready to express strong opinion and are seeking further input. This IS related to textual analysis, and it is not "voodoo", believe me. Anyone here is little more than a voice. Then comes the question: what does that voice choose to utter and point out? Where is each post taking us or wanting to take us? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 62. "Where Are You, Lake?" Posted by shadow on 09:02:07 6/16/2000 I honestly do not believe that Lake is Susan Stine! You ask why? OK, first, why would Lake (SS?) for many, many months make the mistake of saying that FW's son was the age of Burke when SS had to know he is the age of JonBenet? Second, why would a friend and supporter of the Ramseys (SS) suggest that Burke and a friend (first FW's son, now someone else's - the Stine's son?) committed the crime? Third, why would Lake (SS?) suggest over and over on this forum that the Ramseys are involved in a "cover-up?" No, I can't buy the SS/Lake theory... but, I have wondered from time to time about the "hard-time" Lake gives me concerning my attending N.C. State University and Duke (Glen Stine got an MS from UNC). And, I do wonder where Lake is as this "roast Lake" conversation goes on and on. shadow [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 65. "Ryder" Posted by chebrock on 11:08:35 6/16/2000 Ryder, This is a great thread. Very interesting and full of potential. I also like the newbie info you pointed out a few posts back, more specifically about the LH forum but I have noticed alot of "I'm new here....but..." posts on Cybersleuths lately. It just makes me suspicious. These newbies initially feign ignorance of the case and evidence and ask some pretty bizarre questions but a couple posts later they've watched every documentary, reviewed the transcripts of every interview and read all the books. They have researched bible verses and opinions of other experts in the case. Yeah right. It might be interesting if someone who can identify writing styles were to review some of these posts, (you won't have to look far, the forum is full of them) and post what they find. They all sound the same to me. Again, kudos on a great post. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 63. "mandarin, rico, Ryder" Posted by fly on 10:40:25 6/16/2000 mandarin - Be brave. Name the hats. If I happen to be on your short list, given my habit of pointing out alternatives to anti-Ram interpretations, you're way off track, though. rico - A couple of things: (1) I rather surprised that CU would give an 18K bonus because universities usually give raises, not bonuses. Also a raise of around 18% is REALLY rare, unless the administration is trying to fix something like salary compression, or they are matching another job offer a person has in hand. (2) Why do you say Tracey probably would have known either SS or GS? Is this an assumption or actual knowledge (just want to keep things straight). Faculty at a large school like CU don't necessarily know or have much contact with the higher administration. Ryder - I understand why people might think those of us who often challenge the very pro-Ram posts here might be part of team Ramsey. As I've posted before, though, some of us think that keeping arguments intellectually honest by raising reasonable alternatives is an important thing to do. The spectre of groupthink can all too easily take over a fairly homogenous forum, and that rarely leads to good. For myself, you'd find me posting the anti-Ram alternative view when appropriate were I posting on a largely pro-Ram board. Believe me, there are times I read over at jameson's and greatly wish I could post in opposition to some of that stuff. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 66. "Ryder" Posted by Gemini on 11:14:32 6/16/2000 Could just be the view from where I sit, but it seems to me that, when a group is heavily biased on one side, and many of its members give excellent presentations of that POV, it's somewhat important the other side be heard ... otherwise, there's no fence to sit on. That's why I try to counter-point as much as possible ... especially when I see reason used that's guided by emotion rather than logic and factual information. Most of the time, my posts 'counter' more as an objection to mis-information or totally one-sided thinking than pro Rams opinion. When I see threads like this, I'm pretty sure the goal is to eliminate all but the hard-core antis. That's been tried before and when the pull and tug of a wider variety of ideas disappeared, the forum discussion became repetitious and dull. Appreciate the diverse thinkers. We provide an important element in trying to get to the truth of this case. :-) I'm totally open, as I think most fencers are, to a Ramsey donnit position ... one that stands up without emotional button pushing or less than credible assumptions. In fact, I've posted my PR dunnit idea and get a little weary of paranoid poster accusations I should not have to defend myself against. Again ... when you allow yourself to get bogged down in make-believe, all it does is create the very kind of mis-information that doesn't benefit JfJBR ... or, most particularly, the forum. So, HUG A FENCER! We keep you on your toes. But, beware the old, tired flamer-hats. They've brought down more than one JB forum in the post. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 64. "I'm married to Frankg"Fly"Gemini" Posted by Edie Pratt on 11:05:45 6/16/2000 and even he thinks it's strange that mere "acquaintances" would shut everything down in their lives and pick up and move with the Ramseys. Even if they're innocent, that is weird. And, fwiw, I believe LAKE is a concept. The original idea was, "let's throw a bucket of water on JW, et al", and PR probably said, "Bucket?! Hell, how bout a LAKE?" Hence the name, which is also an anagram for LEAK. JMHO,OC. SBTC VICTORY YADA YADA YADA. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 68. "Pisces #60" Posted by Ryder on 11:21:43 6/16/2000 The "fatal attraction" comment also sticks in my mind. But if you get me going on that movie's message and the use of such a phrase, I can't promise that I will ever stop. Suffice to say I have a lot of bones to pick with the character portrayal and "moral" of that story. Thus JR's allusion to it, did not particularly impress me at all and you are right: it also is a prime example of a refusal to accept one's responsibility. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 67. "LOL Edie Pratt" Posted by Gemini on 11:21:34 6/16/2000 JW would not be the good forum it is without your gift for lightening things up. You and Lacey both have a talent for doing that with an occasional poke, but not with a mean spirit. Thanks for the smile :-) . [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 69. "Gemini" Posted by Edie Pratt on 11:28:16 6/16/2000 Back at you! It's no fun without your counter argument, nomatter how much I want you to take a side. And, I must admit to being a little jealous of you for having that very valuable ability of keeping an open mind, I'm afraid I'm a bit of a racehorse,lol. Thanks, Gem, you made my day:-) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 70. "Wanted to clear this up" Posted by socks on 12:05:29 6/16/2000 The year John received his Master's was 1971 from Michigan State. The info is in an archived thread at the Ramsey Spin Miester's place. I think the date of the thead is Feb. 22 this year. Since Glen graduated from Michigan State in 1970, I would think the chances of John and Glen meeting back then were great. socks/midnite [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 71. "socks and Edie" Posted by fly on 13:27:03 6/16/2000 Edie - No argument here about the Stines moving with the Ramseys being odd. socks - Michigan State is a big school - 30-40K students, I think. Unless they shared a fraternity, I'd say it was more unlikely than likely that JR and GS would have known each other. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 72. "Ryder, Rico, Socks A few thoughts ..." Posted by mandarin on 22:08:03 6/16/2000 WOW ... YOU TWO ARE WALKIN DIGESTS & so articulate too. Interesting reads, every tme! May I say 'mucho gratias' for all the dope on the dopes! Rico, I'm looking forward to that paper SS wrote onTabloids & really appreciate your generousity of posting it here, later. Socks ...the conicdiences in the Rams/Jams/Stine previous home states is very intriguing AND Glen and John at the same university .... hmmmm, I'd say these 2 go back a very long way. Remember in JR & PR's book, John spoke of his neuortic 5 and 10 year plan to increase his financial fortune. Well what better way to do it than with an outgoing financial professor. About the 2 homes the Stines bought in Atlanta ... could the Rams have been filtering their sell off money from assets (boat, plane, real estate) through the Stines. Bet GS knows how to get the money out of the country and into a swiss bank account or the Cayman Islands, whatever. The Rams need a place to hide their dwindling fortune - after all they were not as clever hiding their dead 6 year old daughter in Christmas/96. It would be intersting to see who the mortgagee is for both the Stine homes (most likely a convolute numbered company or a reasonable facsimile). Make no mistake, the one priority on the Rams part, from the start was to funnel their money out of the country before the sharks (lawyers) got at it. Perhaps the Rams own all the home but have put them in the Stine's name and he, maybe the Stines helped the Rams get the bag of cash out of the country. Hmmmmmm they have an address at Peachtree Drive, isn't that the street Patsy & John lived on before they moved to Boulder. Someone in Ram or Paugh clan lived on that street. In any event, the name Peachtree rings a definite bell. I've read other threads now and so it's more or less a mute point, Tracy, Stines, Rams were the main orchestrators of that infamous A&E crock. BTW, was it filmed in England or were parts filmed here and there in Boulder, Atlants, etc. For sure, this video was in the making at the very beginning of 1997, probably why the Rams had no time for the police or any real investigation. I'm hoping Ryder, that since most of us are creatures of habit, "familiarity will breed contempt" with the Rams and the Stines AND as we all know it will be a matter involved COLD HARD CASH! P.S. and BTW my cynical nature of "alleged" sincere and true posters must have caught a few off guard, some I'd not really thouhgt about, other, I have to confess I did. To summarize, I'd guess on any given day, there are at least 10 Ram team posters, BUT you will not always know them by their post, after all their intent is twofold: deception and data gathering. Regards. Mandarin Regards, Mandarin [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 73. "Hello Pisces ..." Posted by mandarin on 22:30:25 6/16/2000 Not sure your hat is your sun sign, but if it is, we' born under the same stars. BTW, I don't really believe that people are packed into 12 water-tight compartments and of course there are so many awful people in the world, you know they had to be born under some sign, e.g. Hitler .... oh yeah, leader all right (Aries. Henry VII .. real home lover that guy - chop, chop (he was a home loving Cancer) Taurus .... stubborn yes, never more than $2.98 on a special present for their loved one. Pisces ... always in a fish-like daze and they can never find their keys or their comb. Capricorn ... Christ was a Cap, but one thing stay away from them at a party, they are booooring. Gemini .... oh their coy, never know which face they should present and SO INEPT, but they think their ineptitude is cute. Scorpio ... secretive & mysterious - NEVER, ever ask them for the slightest thing, least of all the time of day. Virgos .... orderly, make good prison wardens. Leos .... crabby, conceited and they think they can walk on water, but mostly they sink. Saggitarius .... another fire sign - beware these people are full of themselves and yes, they do throw surprise parties for themselves. Aquarians .... hmmmmm water-bearears, humanitarians, sure, right! Just watch your bank balance if you're married to one. Ah Libras .... the promiscuous sign, quiet and unsuspecting, but they do get around, but secretly I might add. Like Pisces, they would walk a mile to get their feelings hurt. Sorry Pisces, I just thought you might enjoy my version of the 12 signs as opposed to the daily boring posts in the newspapers, where everyone will get a raise, find a great mate and sail off into the sunset. Like I said, life sure ain't like that and people REALLY do not fit into 12 water-tight compartments. Regards, Mandarin [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ]