Justice Watch Discussion Board "Hellhole Info Here!!!" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... Hellhole Info Here!!!, Paralegal, 12:10:07, 6/15/2000 Right On Paralegal!, Seeker, 12:44:04, 6/15/2000, (#1) Awesome!, Paralegal, 13:01:12, 6/15/2000, (#2) What's the address for, AutumnBorn, 13:12:30, 6/15/2000, (#3) The Diff, Paralegal, 13:17:28, 6/15/2000, (#4) Tried to call, but, Seeker, 13:49:10, 6/15/2000, (#5) Mike Bynum's, guardian, 15:13:53, 6/15/2000, (#7) Let Me Know..., Paralegal, 15:08:45, 6/15/2000, (#6) The Plot Thickens, Paralegal, 15:18:00, 6/15/2000, (#9) Paralegal, guardian, 15:16:47, 6/15/2000, (#8) I'll guess, short timer, 15:25:24, 6/15/2000, (#11) Guardian, Paralegal, 15:19:37, 6/15/2000, (#10) Paralegal, guardian, 15:44:33, 6/15/2000, (#14) My Guess, Denver, 15:40:55, 6/15/2000, (#13) Ah Oh, Seashell, 15:40:01, 6/15/2000, (#12) Seashell,, guardian, 15:47:20, 6/15/2000, (#15) Damn!, Ginja, 15:55:13, 6/15/2000, (#17) Ginja, Seeker, 16:05:16, 6/15/2000, (#19) Time zone problem, guardian, 15:53:36, 6/15/2000, (#16) Okay, we still need to call..., Ginja, 16:21:56, 6/15/2000, (#21) Guardian!!, Paralegal, 16:04:42, 6/15/2000, (#18) Paralegal, Seeker, 16:09:05, 6/15/2000, (#20) It's Those Connections..., Paralegal, 16:36:31, 6/15/2000, (#24) Paralegal, , guardian, 16:35:00, 6/15/2000, (#23) $$$$$, Ginja, 16:30:29, 6/15/2000, (#22) Ginja,, guardian, 16:39:03, 6/15/2000, (#25) Double Dipping, Paralegal, 16:47:15, 6/15/2000, (#27) Paralegal, tinky, 10:17:05, 6/16/2000, (#34) Lexis documents, Redd Herring, 16:46:29, 6/15/2000, (#26) Hey Red Herring!, Paralegal, 16:51:07, 6/15/2000, (#28) Red! , Seeker, 16:55:23, 6/15/2000, (#29) I actually talked to Tina at SOS's office, MJenn, 18:42:46, 6/15/2000, (#30) Good Sleuthing MJenn!, Paralegal, 19:20:45, 6/15/2000, (#31) No mystery to Scott Allison, MJenn, 02:06:29, 6/16/2000, (#32) MJenn, guardian, 05:08:20, 6/16/2000, (#33) Don't tell me I was right!, Seashell, 10:54:37, 6/16/2000, (#35) Use the Freedom on Information Act, Jeanilou, 12:27:26, 6/16/2000, (#36) Hold On, Paralegal, 14:58:59, 6/16/2000, (#37) PL, Seashell, 15:29:46, 6/16/2000, (#38) Well Sea, Paralegal, 16:27:20, 6/16/2000, (#39) Local posters, Ginja, 16:54:20, 6/16/2000, (#40) Tantilizing Tidbits, straykat2, 19:00:47, 6/16/2000, (#41) Well Ginja, Paralegal, 19:24:50, 6/16/2000, (#42) Mission Accomplished! Fax is gone!, Jeanilou, 20:07:26, 6/16/2000, (#43) You Asked For It, straykat2, 20:38:41, 6/16/2000, (#44) Sorry About The Lines, straykat2, 20:44:18, 6/16/2000, (#45) Smoking Gun?, straykat2, 20:48:54, 6/16/2000, (#46) Straykat?, canadiana, 20:56:41, 6/16/2000, (#47) straykat2, Ginja, 21:01:14, 6/16/2000, (#48) Ginja, straykat2, 21:11:16, 6/16/2000, (#50) Scuse me - , v_p, 21:03:41, 6/16/2000, (#49) straykat, canadiana, 21:52:37, 6/16/2000, (#51) Straykat, v_p, 22:16:25, 6/16/2000, (#52) Older Property Summary, AuntieBJ, 22:42:31, 6/16/2000, (#53) More Info, straykat2, 06:50:51, 6/17/2000, (#54) ................................................................... "Hellhole Info Here!!!" Posted by Paralegal on 12:10:07 6/15/2000 Called the CO Secretary of State's Office this morning to get information regarding ownership of this property. Here is what I got: The limited liability company 755 15th St., LLC was formed 1/21/98; Statutory agent-Darlene Sommers, 1900 15th St., Boulder CO 80302; LLC Members (unknown manager designation)-Group II Partnership and Group IV Partnership. This corporate formation is typical of investor-type deals that veil the ownership of the investment LLCs formed to buy/sell real estate. However, one of you can call the CO Sec'y. of State's office at (303) 894-2251 to find out if these two partnerships have filed partnership certificates. If so, those certificates should reveal who the partners are in these two entities that own the LLC. Whoever can make this call to get the info, please post it here once obtained (I'd do it myself but I'm here at work...Thanks!) NOTE:This information is public info so there should be no problem getting it or risk of bullchit lawsuit for posting it! [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL Paralegal ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "Right On Paralegal!" Posted by Seeker on 12:44:04 6/15/2000 Happy to make THAT call! I'll get it done either today or tomorrow (as time allows). I'll see if they can e-mail me that info (if available due to filing or not), then I'll paste it here for all to see. This should be informative. Do you know if ALL parties involved have to be listed? Or can they use a "blanket" listing? In fact I won't wait until tomorrow, I'll do it right after lunch today! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "Awesome!" Posted by Paralegal on 13:01:12 6/15/2000 >Happy to make THAT call! [Thanks] > I'll get it done either today or tomorrow >(as time allows). I'll see if >they can e-mail me that info >(if available due to filing or >not), then I'll paste it here >for all to see. [Hopefully they can, but usually there's a charge for any "hard" documentation.] >This should be informative. Do you know if >ALL parties involved have to be >listed? Or can they use a >"blanket" listing? [Well, usually partnership certificates list all the partners to the partnership, but it's not unusual in multi-million dollar real estate deals to find even MORE corporate entities listed as partners. In fact, most RICO-type transactions are tiered like that, sorta like the Iran-Contra money laundering path.] [My suspicion is that Group II Partnership is none other than John and Patsy Ramsey, hence (ugh!) the Roman numeral II. I'm turning inside out to find out who Group IV is! Thanks for helping here Seeker, you're terrif!] >In fact I won't wait until tomorrow, >I'll do it right after lunch >today! [Too cool!] [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "What's the address for" Posted by AutumnBorn on 13:14:18 6/15/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 13:14:18, 6/15/2000 Bynum's office? Edited to add: Anne Bork was reported by Bynum to be the investor's group agent (whatever that means). [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "The Diff" Posted by Paralegal on 13:17:28 6/15/2000 > > > > NOTE: >This message was last edited 13:14:18, >6/15/2000 > > > Bynum's office? [Look it up in the white pages online!] >Edited to add: Anne Bork was >reported by Bynum to be the >investor's group agent (whatever that means). [She is probably the real estate agent/broker for the group. A statutory agent is an official designation by statute of one person who conducts the legal affairs of the corporation in behalf of the owners. This person will usually be the one to accept service of process when the company is being sued...] > [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "Tried to call, but" Posted by Seeker on 13:49:10 6/15/2000 got NO answer. Phone just rang & rang. Not even a message or anything. I'll try again in about an hour. Maybe they are like Dr's offices, closed until after 2PM. I'll let you know... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "Mike Bynum's" Posted by guardian on 15:13:53 6/15/2000 address is 1900 15th st [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "Let Me Know..." Posted by Paralegal on 15:08:45 6/15/2000 if you can't get through, Seeker, and I'll try again tomorrow morning. Usually these types of offices are super busy later in the day. Thanks for trying! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "The Plot Thickens" Posted by Paralegal on 15:18:00 6/15/2000 So who wants to guess who Group IV Partnership is? Mike Bynum, Alex Hunter, their two criminal lawyers? The JBR Foundation, the Burke Ramsey Trust, The Ramsey Defense Fund and Rol Hoverstock? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 8. "Paralegal" Posted by guardian on 15:16:47 6/15/2000 If you will tell me just what to ask I'll call right now. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 11. "I'll guess" Posted by short timer on 15:25:24 6/15/2000 Glen Stine, Bryan Morgan, Mike Bynum, and Don Paugh. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. "Guardian" Posted by Paralegal on 15:19:37 6/15/2000 Just call that number and tell them you want info on a couple of partnerships. Then give them the names-Group II Partnership and Group IV Partnership, as disclosed in the LLC documents on file with their office. Say it just that way and they should be able to pull up info on their little computers. Let me know what happens. Thanks! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 14. "Paralegal" Posted by guardian on 15:44:33 6/15/2000 I called and received a recorded message. I can do this by phone, internet, or fax. However I have to use my VISA to use the internet or fax. I don't want a record of that really. By phone they charge it to your phone,a 900 # was given which I tried. No answer. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. "My Guess" Posted by Denver on 15:40:55 6/15/2000 Glen Stine, Bryan Morgan, Mike Bynum, Byron Chrisman, and Hal Haddon [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 12. "Ah Oh" Posted by Seashell on 15:40:01 6/15/2000 Why do I have the feeling that that info is "classified" or somehow "unobtainable"? Since this forum is monitored, they already know we're after the names. I'll be waiting..... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "Seashell," Posted by guardian on 15:47:20 6/15/2000 I'm really trying here. Think positive please. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 17. "Damn!" Posted by Ginja on 15:55:13 6/15/2000 We had all this information back in 1997 when the house first changed hands. I'm "damning" it, because I don't know where (in my file) to look! JR and PR sold it to Bynum and a group of his (Bynum's) business associates. He rented it for while, after he cleaned it out (and there's no telling "how" he cleaned it out). He did a tour with Diane Sawyer...maybe there's something in that transcript. As I remember it, it was only one Group (Bynum's). The house has been a millstone around his neck...he can't do anything with it...can't rent, can't sell...and likened it to the Simpson estate (which eventually was torn down). This may have been the reason why he brought in another "Group". I'll go through my files and see if I can find the papers. Ooops! I was going to say, since the SOS's office is closed now...but I'm on the east coast! So I guess if you're west of the Mississippi, you can still try to get through! :-) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 19. "Ginja" Posted by Seeker on 16:05:16 6/15/2000 Only, O.J.'s house did sell and only barely under the asking price. I can understand how the new owners would want to tear it down though. It wasn't well designed in the first place. Got to "tour" it while it was up for sale with an "interested" party toying with the idea of purchasing it. I won't be suprised if the Ramsey's old house sells for close to the asking price either. Just think of who the "new" owners could be. Maybe that guy who says he can talk to the dead will purchase it, hold seances, and give tours of the house, complete with the "hidden wine celler/murder" room. Hold a Murder Mystery Weekend once a month with the theme being, what else, "Who Killed JonBenet?" Someone may try to capitolize on this property after all... Just some thoughts. I'll try to call again in the morning. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "Time zone problem" Posted by guardian on 15:53:36 6/15/2000 The 900# says they close at 3:30. I just realized its 4:30 in Denver. I'll try this in the morning. I promise. Guardian [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 21. "Okay, we still need to call..." Posted by Ginja on 16:21:56 6/15/2000 ...because my papers don't list the businessmen. However, it noted (from 2/98) that the house was first sold by the Ramseys to a relocation service retained by Ramsey's employer. However, it wasn't understood whether that "employer" was Access Graphics or Lockheed Martin. Joel Ripmaster of Colorado Landmark Realtors handled the February sale to the investor group, but wouldn't name the relocation service. Which, coincidentally, hired Ripmaster in late 1997 to list the property. So basically, the situation was that Bynum, as noted, was "handling" the house in the Ramseys absence up to the time they sold it to the relocation service. The service, in turn, hired Ripmaster to sell the property. Ripmaster then turned the property over the investor group in February. "That" sale was to the 755 15th Street LLC (investor group) for $650,000. According to Bynum, the group is composed of individuals "assisting the Ramsey family." IOW, their friends. The investor group was incorporated shortly before the sale, on January 21, 1998, listing Boulder resident Ann Bork as its registered agent. When asked about the sale, Bork refused comment. Ramsey, and Ripmaster, refuse to say how much the house was sold to the relocation service. But Ramsey has been quoted as saying he took a major loss. Ripmaster turned around and sold it to Bynum's group for $650,000. I can't find the papers that name who the members of this group are, so I guess we'll have to wait until the SOS opens for business tomorrow. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "Guardian!!" Posted by Paralegal on 16:04:42 6/15/2000 DON'T use the 900 number-it costs $1.50 per minute!! Unless of course you're living off a trust fund. Call that 303 number I gave you first thing in the morning Denver time if you're going to call. It is the right number and will only cost the usual LD charge. These gov't. offices are usually easier to get first thing when they open as opposed to about 10:30 am and the rest of the day. Good luck! Post on this thread if you don't get thru and I'll try on my lunch. Ginja, those old docs would be helpful. There are two partnerships that form the LLC according to the SOS' records as of today. My guess is that one p'ship is the Ramseys while the other is comprised of at least 2 of their attorneys and I'm guessing JR and another Ramsey family member. This would give the Rams controlling interest in the LLC which would give them controlling interest in the property and proceeds. The curious thing to me is that the LLC certificate filed with the CO SOS did not designate which of the members were managers. That might be something for you to dig into if you're willing. (Geez, this is beginning to sound like Mission Impossible-Part Trois!) Sea, I doubt this info is sealed stuff, but it's likely a partnership certificate was not filed with the SOS to "register" these partnerships, expressly for the purpose of veiling ownership of the LLC and it's assets. If that's the case, one would have to call the stat agent or broker to get the info. Anyone game??? Are we sleuths or snoops? YES! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 20. "Paralegal" Posted by Seeker on 16:09:05 6/15/2000 Both! lol You know I'm game! I know a real estate agent, maybe she can find out that info through her channels if it's not available to the GP... I'll ask her just in case. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 24. "It's Those Connections..." Posted by Paralegal on 16:36:31 6/15/2000 I love so much! Now we're getting somewhere! If your agent/friend can call this Darlene Sommers at Bynum's office (wanna bet she's an associate attorney there?) just as a cold call to see who the real estate broker is, then call the broker just to see who ownership of the property is, that would be so cool. Then Ginja, if you have access to the Dept. of Real Estate online services, see if you can find out anything there and also at the Boulder County Recorder's office. There should be deeds of trust, etc. documenting the various sale transactions on the property that we can pull and even print out at the Recorder's sight. Sure wish I didn't have to work for a living! I'd buy that house and set up a post for everyone of us at JW! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 23. "Paralegal, " Posted by guardian on 16:35:00 6/15/2000 You're so funny. No I'm not living on a trust fund. The only reason I called the 900# was because of the recording. I thought you had to use one of the three options the (303)# gave. I didn't realize the reason I got the recording was because they were closed. I noticed the time zone difference after using the 900#. I won't do it again. My snooping skills are rusty. I was quite good at one time. Just ask my former husband. I think they'll come back. Like riding a bike, you never really forget. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 22. "$$$$$" Posted by Ginja on 16:30:29 6/15/2000 How much did the Rams put out up front to purchase the house in '90 (or was it '91)? The figure $750,000 sticks out, but I don't know if that was the purchase price or the value after they had done all the work and put the addition on. The addition alone went for something like $150,000. Anyway, what I'm getting at is Ramsey took a loss of at least $100,000 if the $750K figure is the full value figure. If it's the purchase price, the loss was even greater. Let's hope! :-) That the Ramseys are partners would make sense because now the house's list price is $1.2M. I can't find all my papers, but I do remember something where John was listed as President and Patsy was either Vice President or Treasurer or some office, I can't remember. Damn, I wish I was more organized! Let it be said, real estate is not my forte! LOL [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 25. "Ginja," Posted by guardian on 16:39:03 6/15/2000 The house was purchased in 1991 for 500,000. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 27. "Double Dipping" Posted by Paralegal on 16:48:26 6/15/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 16:48:26, 6/15/2000 Guardian, don't you worry bout your snooping skills, just stick around JW and you'll be a pro in no time! Ginja, the former corporate structure on the house would just be irrelevant now, so don't strain anything looking for them. According to the post at Ma Brady's today, the Rams bought the house for $500K as Guardian said and put I think about as much into remodeling costs while living there. They sold it to Bynum for $650K, which is where they took the big dumper (which they used as deduction on income tax for that year.) If they are indeed the Group II Partnership in the LLC, there's the double dip into profits to recoup losses (which will of course be re-routed into the JBR Foundation, which is a total deduction on income tax,i.e., triple dip). If, as I suspect, they hold any further ownership interest in that LLC and its assets under Group IV Partnership, voila, a quadruple dip and more write-offs! Ain't these lawyers clever???? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 34. "Paralegal" Posted by tinky on 10:17:05 6/16/2000 Our company is an LLC, and you are right about the tax information. I suspect they will milk it for what it is worth. I hope whoever purchases the house, doesn't turn it into a freak show. It would be nice if the house could be torn down. But that probably won't happen. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 26. "Lexis documents" Posted by Redd Herring on 16:46:29 6/15/2000 Some of what you are looking for is located here: http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/reddhotts/rh_lexisrecords.html [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 28. "Hey Red Herring!" Posted by Paralegal on 16:51:07 6/15/2000 I think I love you! Thanks!! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 29. "Red! " Posted by Seeker on 16:55:23 6/15/2000 Wonderful! What more can I say... Hat's off to you buddy! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 30. "I actually talked to Tina at SOS's office" Posted by MJenn on 18:42:46 6/15/2000 today, Thursday, and I was trying to bluff my way through since I could only parrot what Paralegal had said and didn't understand it all, so I didn't get much. It was about 3:30 in that time zone, I'm guessing, and what I was told was that no partners were listed, but I could order the documents on file for 755 15th St., LLC by fax (7 to 10 days to receive, $.50/page) or come into the office myself and xerox them. Not likely: I'm in Georgia. If anyone knows where this office is, they could check it out at lunch or something. These could be the same records Redd uncovered for us, I don't know. Tina did say there were no tradenames nor managers nor members listed, but that Darlene Sommers is the listed agent. (Fax number for SOS's office is 303 894-2242.) If enough of us call, Tina may get weary of us, so be extra nice. One other thing I looked up: the address listed as the agent's address, 1900 15th St., Boulder, CO, 80302-5414, is listed in an online directory as the address of Scott B. Allison, and no listing for Darlene Sommers. This is the address you all have listed for Mike Bynum's office. Does he rent an upstairs apartment there? There's an "E21" after the name, could be apt. number. I haven't had time to find out, but none of the Ramsey case Who's Who listings have any Allisons but the psychic, Dorothy. Any relation? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 31. "Good Sleuthing MJenn!" Posted by Paralegal on 19:35:40 6/15/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 19:35:40, 6/15/2000 Take the bull---- by the horns! You talked to the same lady at the CO SOS office I did, and she went so far as to advise me that as of 7/1 they will no longer give out that kind of info cuz they're just too swamped with phone calls! I checked out the docs that redherring has posted and didn't find any paper trail on the two partnership entities that "own" the LLC. So I emailed red to see if he/she could sleuth that out for us. If there's any poster here at JW who lives in the Denver area, would you be so kind as to call the SOS to see if these two partnerships filed what's called a Certificate of Partnership with that office and if so, how you can go about getting documentation for them? As to the office listed in the docs for the stat agent, yes, that is the same address for Mike Bynum. Again, if there's a JW sleuth in the Denver area, could you do a drive-by? I suspect that is a commercial building and the E no. in the address is actually a suite no. Red also has docs at the website regarding the JBR Foundation I thought were very interesting. Whereas JR and his Access Graphics buds were the only directors/officers of the Access Graphics company, sans PR, PR was listed along with JR as the only two directors of the foundation. Most "mom and pop" corporations like Access Graphics include the wifey-poo as a director/officer. Thought PR helped JR start this company in that hometown basement? Funny he wouldn't give her any ownership interest in it after all her hard work... And the stock info was priceless-the company issued a little over 5,000 shares to the directors at a price of 10 cents each! Hello-someone made a helluva profit on his stock! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 32. "No mystery to Scott Allison" Posted by MJenn on 02:06:29 6/16/2000 Found him and should've guessed, he's a lawyer for Bynum's group. FYI, that group of lawyers has 30+ sharks swimming with them. Go visit their web site (cbj.com): I wouldn't be surprised if there's a crook or two among them. They've sure got the law covered 6 ways from Sunday. Believe me, Mike Bynum wasn't just guessing when he told Ramsey he needed a lawyer. I bet he knows ALL. From the horse's mouth--remember that little evening stroll John took with Bynum that first night at the Fernie's? Strange thing to do, what with S.B.T.C. on the loose and all. Wonder if that's when Bynum decided for John he'd better lawyer up. What I don't understand is why his law firm didn't represent the Ramseys. They're mostly corporate, but they do have some criminal experience. Guess he just saw right off that the Ramseys needed experts in criminal law. Wonder why? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 33. "MJenn" Posted by guardian on 05:08:20 6/16/2000 I'm glad you mentioned the stroll John and Mike Bynum took. I hadn't thought of that in years. For someone who "showed up as John and Patsy's friend. Wasn't thinking of anything he could do for them legally." He thought of a lot to do real fast. I agree with your reason for bringing in other lawyers. Bynum and the others in his group are corporate from what I have seen. The more I learn the sicker I feel. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 35. "Don't tell me I was right!" Posted by Seashell on 10:54:37 6/16/2000 We can't get the names of the partners? No more phone calls after July 1st? Figures! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 36. "Use the Freedom on Information Act" Posted by Jeanilou on 12:27:26 6/16/2000 When they stop taking phone calls, you can always fax and request the information under Freedom of Information Act. I will do it if you want. My home office is complete with fax machine. Just let me know if you need me to fax for you, or not. Jeani [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 37. "Hold On" Posted by Paralegal on 14:58:59 6/16/2000 No one said the info won't be available after 7/1, Sea! They are being swamped with phone calls so they will only be taking requests by fax or mail, that's all. By all means, let's try to fax them to see if we can get the partnership docs that will tell us who the individuals are who constitute the LLC. The FOIA prevails, but am expecting a charge for these docs... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 38. "PL" Posted by Seashell on 15:29:46 6/16/2000 >No one said the info won't be >available after 7/1, Sea! They are >being swamped with phone calls so >they will only be taking requests >by fax or mail, that's all. What I want to know is, who's swamping them with phone calls? People from JW? Are the phone calls about the partnership or just calls in general? I smell something foul here - another hedge, another delay until sensitive info can be hidden or legally denied. They're always one jump ahead of us because we talk about what we're going to do here and they read here. Am I paranoid? You bet!!! I suggest that from now on, we be pro-active before we post the info. I think we need to fight sneak with sneak. Maybe this particular thing doesn't apply, but a lot of what we've discussed in the past does. The RST has answers for everything and I think we've helped them immensely. :-( I'd be very surprised if we get the info we want. We're dealing with pros - sneaky, dishonest and with a lot to lose. The Ramseys have been under the protective DA umbrella since day one. According to ST's book, several BPD members are in the DA's pocket also. Good luck, PL. I hope I'm wrong. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 39. "Well Sea" Posted by Paralegal on 16:27:20 6/16/2000 not every partnership files those certificates with the SOS office, so my first guess is that they purposely didn't to avoid revealing ownership names. I don't suspect (at this time) that the CO SOS personnel are part of a mega-conspiracy to protect the Rams, just typical of gov't employee-types (no offense to anybody)-overworked, underpaid and doesn't give a chit! We'll see what happens with Jeanilou's fax request and then we'll have a better feel for whaddup in Denver... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 40. "Local posters" Posted by Ginja on 16:54:20 6/16/2000 There are several local posters...if we could lure them in here to see this, maybe they'd make the run to the SOS in person. There's Denver (duh! wonder where Denver lives! lol)...then there's Mame. I think a few more, too. Hell...why don't we email BJ Plasket? He could turn it into a story. :-) Wow...so they bought the house for $500K? And put about the same into renovations? I don't know...I don't think they lost chit. This is all on paper under friends' names. Bynum? He's the worst shark ever! Wasn't the 'walk' outside the Fernies the first night? With Beuf? On Sawyer, Bynum says he went to the Fernies that night (the 26th). When he got there, he said Patsy was sitting in a chair, distraught, and he went over to her and lifted her or pulled her up out of the chair to give her a hug and give his condolences. He then met up with John in the hallway. John was walking down the hall with Burke. Bynum said that he was a former prosecutor and knew how this looked and knew the cops would go straight for the parents, so he approached John and and asked him if John trusted him; JR said yes, and Bynum said something like, then trust me on this, you need an attorney, I can do that for you, do you want me to take care of it. And John turned around and told him to do whatever he thought best. Then John turned around and with his hand on Burke's shoulder, went into a bedroom with Burke to put him to bed. That's the story Bynum told Diane Sawyer. It looks as though the infamous walk took place after Burke was put to bed. That is, if Bynum was in on the walk. Beuf was there and supplied Patsy with the drugs that had her so polluted she couldn't get out of the chair on her own. Okay, I guess that's enough gossip, eh? :-) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 41. "Tantilizing Tidbits" Posted by straykat2 on 19:03:29 6/16/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 19:03:29, 6/16/2000 Allison - Jim Allison was a Denver Chief Deputy District Attorney. If memory serves me correctly he is now a judge, but I don't know what county...could be Boulder or Denver. Jim Allison's wife (her name escapes me) was also employed as a DA by the Denver District Attorney's office. She was allegedly wrongfully terminated by the DA's office in 1997, and filed suit. Has anyone at JW ever posted that the shower-head was the blunt object that struck JonBenet's head? Give me 24 hours to dig up the real estate records for 755 15th. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 42. "Well Ginja" Posted by Paralegal on 19:24:50 6/16/2000 you are absolutely right IMHO. The Rams didn't take a bath on the sale of the Hellhole and I for one am dying to see those partnership docs to prove it. Since the GJ was dismissed, the Rams have been on an unholy crusade to raise tons of money. JR can't get a job, PR wouldn't dream of it and there are renovations to be done on the new castle. And of course, all those damn lawyers to pay! Straykat, could you assist us with getting those partnership docs? I'm sure the real estate stuff will just show corporate and partnership entities all over the place. But that's a thought, while you're strolling thru the deeds of trust at the recorder's office, try finding a partnership certificate for Group II or Group IV. This is one of those situations I'm well known for, ask my friends. They've heard me often enough yelling, "Don't make me come up there!" [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL Paralegal ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 43. "Mission Accomplished! Fax is gone!" Posted by Jeanilou on 20:08:04 6/16/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 20:08:04, 6/16/2000 Okay, I faxed the SOS of Colorado tonight, and they should see it Monday morning but I will call to be sure they got my fax. I also called in a favor owed to me, and might even have an answer before then. I will keep you all posted. Jeani [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 44. "You Asked For It" Posted by straykat2 on 20:38:41 6/16/2000 The following information was obtained directly from the Public Records of Boulder County. Michael Bynum is still the owner of record. There is no mention of Group II or Group IV: PUB_SEARCH V3.2H 16-JUN-2000 21:19:37.20 Enter PROP STR NAME ? 15TH PROP HOUSE NUM Minimum ? 755 Maximum ? 755 Enter feature or ? earch, (M)odify, (R)eview input or 'ESC' ? Print: bbreviated, (C)ustom, (X)tra, (M)edium, (P)c download, (L)abels, (F)ull, (H)ow many ? F Searching .......... .................... Data provided by PDC - BOULDER COUNTY .................... ----- Property Address --------------------------------- ASSR TAPE:17-FEB-2000 PROP ADDRESS:755 15TH ST PIN:146331333014 BOULDER CO 80302-7621 OWNER OCCUPIED:N ----- Owner Address ------------------------------------- TAX DISTRICT:0010 MAIL OWN :755 15TH ST LLC SALE DATE:12-FEB-98 MAIL CO OWN:C/O MICHAEL H BYNUM DEED TYPE:WD OWN ADDRESS:1900 15TH ST DEED # :1771216 BOULDER CO 80302-5414 DEED FEE :$ 65.00 PHONE NUM: ----- Land Information ----------------------------SCHED NUM :0007286 SUB NAME:UNIVERSITY PLACE SUB NUM:8343 LEGAL:LOTS 36-38 & 39 LESS N 7 FT PROP TYPE :RES BLK 35 UNIVERSITY PLACE LOT SIZE : 1.00 LOT TYPE :LOT(S) BLDG # : USE1 CODE :1112 USE2 CODE :1212 CENSUS TRACT:013012401 LAT: 40.001950 LONG: -105.273090 ----- Characteristics ---------------------------------- YOC:1927 ROOMS: 15 BED: 4 BATH: 8 STYLE :1+ STORIES GARAGE TYPE:ATCH GARAGE CONSTR :MASONRY GARAGE SQFT: 528 1ST FLR SQFT: 2050 BSMT SQFT: 1704 SQFT TOT : 6866 ----- Taxes / Assessments --------------------------------TAX YEAR:1999 # IMPR RECRDS : 1 LAND VAL :$ 228000 ANNUAL TAXES:$ 7064.52 TOTAL IMPR VAL:0 RES VAL :$ 729300 BALANCE DUE :$ 7064.52 VALUE TOT :$ 957300 TAX STATUS: ....................** Data Reliable [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 45. "Sorry About The Lines" Posted by straykat2 on 20:44:18 6/16/2000 Sorry about the lines drawn through the information from Public Records above. Those lines were not there until I posted the above message. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 46. "Smoking Gun?" Posted by straykat2 on 20:48:54 6/16/2000 Doesn't anyone know about the shower-head? How clever of Steve Thomas not to mention it. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 47. "Straykat?" Posted by canadiana on 20:56:41 6/16/2000 Do you know something about a showerhead? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 48. "straykat2" Posted by Ginja on 21:01:14 6/16/2000 Uh, would that be a detachable shower head? I'm having a little trouble 'visualizing' JBR being flung through the air, hitting the shower head. What am I missing here? :-( [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 50. "Ginja" Posted by straykat2 on 21:11:16 6/16/2000 Yes, that would be a detachable shower-head with a hose. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 49. "Scuse me - " Posted by v_p on 21:03:41 6/16/2000 Could we start over? V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 51. "straykat" Posted by canadiana on 21:52:37 6/16/2000 Why are you bringing up a showerhead? Do you have 'inside' information? Why did you say it was 'clever' of ST to leave this information out? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 52. "Straykat" Posted by v_p on 22:16:25 6/16/2000 You haven't been reading Death Of A Little Princess, have you? 'o' V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 53. "Older Property Summary" Posted by AuntieBJ on 22:45:43 6/16/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 22:45:43, 6/16/2000 This is old (and may not be new to some) but for documented purposes this is what I received when I requested the property records for this house on 5-18-1998. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Property Summary Report compiled 5-18-1998 4:12pm Colorado Property Record - Boulder Colorado Parcel Number: 1463-31-3-33-014 Brief Legal Desc: Lots 36-38 & 39 Less N 7 FT BLK 35 University Place. County/State: Colorado Property Record - Boulder County. Care/Of Name: Blank Mailing address; 755 15th St, Boulder Co. 80302 Assessed Land Value: $188,300 Market Land Value: Blank Assessed Improvements: $578,500 Market Improvements: Blank Total Assessed Value $ 766,800 Total Market Value: Blank Assessment year: 1995 Most Recent Sale: $500,000 Tax year: 1995 Prior Sales Price: $500,000 Produced By County: 05-19-1996 Property Narrative: Built in 1927, this single family owner occupied property has a total area of 6,866 square feet, and has a lot size of 11,625 square feet. This property has 15 rooms, 4 bedrooms, 6.50 baths, a partial basement, and an attached garage. It is constructed with masonary. The assessed values were established in 1995, results in a total area price per square foot of $111.68, and result in a lot price per square foot of $65.96. Taxes for 1995 are $6,150 and are based on tax rate code area 0010. The most recent sale (shown abvoe on property record) occured 11-1991 and was for the full amaount computed from transfer tax. The prior sale (shown above on property record) occured 11-1991 and is unknown. Information on this property is recorded in the state of Colorado, Boulder County public records in document 101142191. Legal Information From Property Assessment: No information available. Latest Colorado Deed Transfer Record - Boulder County: Parcel Number: 1463-31-3-33-014 Brief Legal Desc: Lots 36-38 & 39 Less N 7 FT BLK 35 University Place Property Address: 755 15th Street, Boulder, Colorado 80302 Sellers: Blank Address: Blank Buyers: Relocation Resources International, Inc. Buyers C/O: Blank Address: 120 Longwater Drive, Norwell, Ma. Sale Price: Blank Lender Name: Blank Loan Amount: Blank Title Company: Blank Sale Date: 11-02-1997 Recording Date: 12-12-1997 On 11-02-1997, transfer of ownership occured on this property through a warranty deed to Relocaton Resources, Internationsl, Inc. The property's lot size is 11,625 square feet. Information on this deed transfer was recorded in the state of Colorado's deed transfer records in document 1755337 on 12-12-1997. Legal Information From Deed: Brief legal desc: Lots 36-38 & 39 LESS N 7 FT BLK 35 University Place Township: Boulder Subdivision: University Place ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 54. "More Info" Posted by straykat2 on 07:06:44 6/17/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 07:06:44, 6/17/2000 The Public Record that I posted above (post #44) is up to date as of yesterday. I cut and pasted it to the JW forum directly from the Metrolist computer system. I chose an abbreviated version of the report. I resent the implication that it is old. It is as accurate as one can get. There is simply is no "new" information. Please notice the assessor's tape date (February 2000)located toward the upper right of the report. At the bottom of the report is an assessed value of $957,300. This is NOT the "market" value. This is only the amount that the county tax assessor uses for tax assessment purposes. The market value is probably much higher. Regarding the showerhead, I was recently informed by a source close to the case that the flexible showerhead in JonBenet's bathroom was used to hit her over the head after a bedwetting incident. I admire Steve Thomas for not revealing "evidence" of this nature in his book. Hope this answers everyone's questions. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ]