Justice Watch Discussion Board "Dr. Beuf, Part 3" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... Dr. Beuf, Part 3, Ginja, 18:53:17, 6/16/2000 The Leap...by Nikki, Ginja, 18:57:32, 6/16/2000, (#1) As a female survivor of child abuse...Dunvegan, Ginja, 19:02:45, 6/16/2000, (#2) Dunvegan, Ginja, 19:13:17, 6/16/2000, (#3) Ginja, v_p, 19:16:42, 6/16/2000, (#5) Canadiana, Gemini, Seeker, Lacey, Ginja...by Fly, Ginja, 19:17:40, 6/16/2000, (#6) Ginja, Greenleaf, 19:15:20, 6/16/2000, (#4) Dunvegan, v_p, 19:23:24, 6/16/2000, (#7) Vicky and Greenie (and AutumnBorn), Ginja, 19:26:29, 6/16/2000, (#8) Faking Cancer...by Seeker, Ginja, 19:29:07, 6/16/2000, (#10) Dunvegan, Seashell, 19:28:29, 6/16/2000, (#9) Woman Faking Cancer...by Fly, Ginja, 19:30:56, 6/16/2000, (#11) Fly...by Seeker, Ginja, 19:33:37, 6/16/2000, (#12) Seeker & fiddler...by Fly, Ginja, 19:36:10, 6/16/2000, (#13) Where's the Beuf?...by Edie Pratt, Ginja, 19:37:21, 6/16/2000, (#14) Bummer! I tried...by Queen of the Nile, Ginja, 19:42:09, 6/16/2000, (#15) Edie...by Fly, Ginja, 19:43:06, 6/16/2000, (#16) Dunvegan...by Darby, Ginja, 19:44:49, 6/16/2000, (#17) V_P, Ginja, 19:49:33, 6/16/2000, (#18) ................................................................... "Dr. Beuf, Part 3" Posted by Ginja on 18:53:17 6/16/2000 Part 2 got too long and took too long to load, so I'm pulling over the last few posts for me, webbies and anyone else who's got a slow loader! [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "The Leap...by Nikki" Posted by Ginja on 18:57:32 6/16/2000 ..my suspicions of Patsy Ramsey began the day I viewed the first appearance of the couple on Jan 1st..via CNN ..something was not right with her or John and it was incredible CNN let her appear so V'ed down she slurred her words worse than I after a night at Shooter's... ..why wasn't the continuing wetting and bed soiling seriously discussed with Buef?...the comments by LHP..Patsy scrubbed those sheets herself..JonBenet was leaving large BMovements in her storybook bedroom..and no one was taking any action to stop it...or were they? ..this does not figure with all her Dr trips ..the asthma and BM sort of go together..it sounds to me as if Patsy was hiding this fact from everyone ..except the housekeeper who was there in the morning and became privy to this information ..it is unsettling to know that this important 'symptom' was on a hidden genda ..unsettling coupled with the fact the child was found DOA in her own home. ..her skull fractured and an obvious staging attempt was made to show the entrace of a mysterious foreign intruder.. ..although there is no history of abuse ..that we know ..I still believe something awful ..intense ..and unholy took JonBenet's life and this mother was either responsible or knows the truth of it... ..a dark river runs through the heart of this ..a river so deep and dark it is unfathomable ..you cannot see the bottom ..but on the surface the dragon appears to raise its scaly head to give us a wink.. ..catch me ..catch me ..catch me if you can... ..the word incest..was there! ..Bless this Child ..and all others that lie in the small tombs of death.. ..let us scatter roses down the streets on the dead [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "As a female survivor of child abuse...Dunvegan" Posted by Ginja on 19:02:45 6/16/2000 1.As a child in the 1960's I experienced sexual exploitation perpetrated by an adoptive, overachieving, church-involved, politically-conservative female "guardian", and a male next-door neighbor who was a locally-active "pillar of the community." Accusing them was unthinkable. She virtually ran on of the local churches, the neighbor was very well-known and liked. But, it happened. It still shocks me that their façade presented so very seamlessly to the community-at-large. 2.Any and all evidentiary behavior of both of these adults could easily be explained away, if you look at any one incident from a dismissive point of view. 3.Whenever I hinted to (what I perceived was) a symphathetic adult what was happening, it always was dismissed. It was usually gently suggested that I must have misinterpreted someting. This was very dangerous stuff on my part: my attempts at trying to expose the adults. I knew that. I was judicious in attempting to tell my story. It was the 1960's. 4.As a child, I always knew that I had no power to successfully defend myself against the clandestine actions of these "powerful" adults. They would simply explain away each event...individually. And if I tried to go public, things would (in all likelihood) become much worse for me, without materially helping me. I was obviously also dependent on all things from these very adults. Punishment was severe. 5.It would have been a blessing for thinking adults to have taken into account the pattern, the bigger picture...and at least have entertained the possibility of abuse in the face of adult denials (in order to both be fair, and to consider the position of the powerless in such a situation. If I could have counted on this, I would have tried to come forward at some point, even as a child I was outraged and felt the injustice...I never bought into the abuser's normalicy façade. By the way: I was entered in many a childhood contest, both academic and otherwise: for many years an oil portrait of me as "Miss BlockClub Queen" (a group in which my guardian was most active) hung in our living room...hung there by the woman who raised me, entered me in the contest, and abused me. I was placed in this competition as a 9 year old and was the youngest contestant by years. Much was done to make certain I won. The highlight was sitting on the back of a convertible in our city's Rose Parade, next to the Rose Queen, in my gown and tiara, waving to the crowd with white gloved hands, a huge bouquet of roses in my lap. I always strove to overachieve and shine, and win every type of competition available, and I will tell you why. I was placed in an accelerated children's program in kindergarten, I was involved in an endless number of extracurricular activities, and graduated high chool at the age of 15, going off to college immediately upon graduation. ...and I'll tell you why I exhibited such drive for all these activities: it was to establish myself as a well-liked child, hoping against hope that among the adults that came to know me because of these events one of them might offer me some protection...might, because I had distinguished myself in some (in any) way, believe my story. My guardian was brilliant at using a barber's leather strop on me for many minutes, then interrupted by a ringing phone, gather her breath back, and speak in a sparkling and cheery voice to a church committee member. I remember to this day always peering into each and every adult who congratulated me for an achievement and wondering, "Would you believe me if I tell you? Would you hampion me?" I think, with a measured consideration of events, we need to allow for both the possible innocence of parties involved in any crime against a child, and the possibility that the powerless child is being silenced or that what guilty adults do in these situations is (of course) defend themselves with lies and dismissals. JonBenet's situation, so far in my mind, is not solved. I gravitate to championing her (without damning anyone out of prejudice.) I know well that unjustly accusing the adults that cared for JonBenet affords JonBenet no justice. However, I champion JonBenet, first and foremost, as she could not and cannot champion herself. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "Dunvegan" Posted by Ginja on 19:13:17 6/16/2000 If you don't mind, what was The Block Club? I couldn't believe it when I read about you being in the parade! Did you know JonBenet rode in a parade? I think it was within weeks of her murder. All alone, perched on the seat, waving to the crowds. God, that's heartbreaking...I mean, in retrospect. Mame was at that parade and talked about it in one of her audios. Mind-boggling. I don't know...every time I read your post I see another parallel. I'm speechless, sitting here shaking my head...it's all emotion that I can't put into words. Not too long ago, Holly started a thread, a story that took place in the future and was paralleling MW's story of today to an "MW" of the future. The MW of the future was JonBenet! Again, thank you for sharing, Dunvegan. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "Ginja" Posted by v_p on 19:16:42 6/16/2000 Did you get to my reply on the previous thread? You asked who had called NIH about PR's cancer - it was Autumnborn - I'm pretty sure. :-) V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "Canadiana, Gemini, Seeker, Lacey, Ginja...by Fly" Posted by Ginja on 19:17:40 6/16/2000 canadiana - No, I don't think you are going crazy. Your point is very appropriate. Seeker - Could have been 4 times that long if I'd detailed every issue. Gemini - Well said. Lacey - Yes, the raw text smiley really isn't adequate. Your whirling feature would have been especially appropriate, I'd say. Ginja - First, you were right in a previous post that asthma can be induced by exercise. That is still a physical trigger (like an allergen is), not an emotional one. As to your last reply: Thank you for proving my case. The prosecution (or defense, if you prefer) rests. However, just a couple of comments to clear up a few things: (1)I never said I edited medical texts. (2) I didn't mean you demonized posters. I meant you demonized case people (Beuf, in particular). (3) Posting assertively is great if you have your facts straight and a sound argument. From one of your earlier posts: Young girls who do not practice good toilet hygiene or who are wetting themselves at night do getbladder or vaginal infections or irritation. (this was my previous comment) (your reply) They get irritations. She had none the night she was murdered. Now if you're talking about other people wiping her...there's cause for infection there. But to get an infection to go all the way to the bladder, the person wiping her didn't wipe her, they stuck their finger(s) inside her! (bold added) Note by Ginja: Sorry, Fly, I'd have bolded the section but I forgot what it was. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "Ginja" Posted by Greenleaf on 19:15:20 6/16/2000 Ginja, you titled your post: "As a female survivor of child abuse...Dunvegan" Is this about you or someone named "Dunvegan?" I am confused. I will save my comments until you answer. BTW, it was riveting. Greenleaf [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "Dunvegan" Posted by v_p on 19:23:24 6/16/2000 Hey. I have been on this forum for about 5 months now. During this time I have read many posts by survivors of childhood abuse. I am not so brave as most - maybe someday :-) My point is, I think an awful lot of us are drawn to this case to see justice done for JonBenet and, in some small way, for the countless other survivors whose stories were never told - for a number of reasons. Among them, children are to be seen and not heard, even in the new millennium. JFJBR and all the other little people who may be heard as a result of that justice. BTW - I'm proud of you Dunvegan. V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 8. "Vicky and Greenie (and AutumnBorn)" Posted by Ginja on 19:26:29 6/16/2000 V: :-) I saw your post from the second thread and figured I'd respond when I pasted it here...you beat me to the punch! LOL AB: Come out, come out, wherever you are! :-) Greenie: Have I confused you? :-) When I continue a thread, I hate pasting a whole bunch of posts in one opening post because it's just as bad as having a long thread...takes a long time to load. So I take each post and paste it individually. I use the same subject line as the poster and then follow it with "by..." LOL...except in Dunvegan's case because her subject line was so long so I skipped the "by". (I know it would have all fit if I kept the "by" in, but then it might have gotten cut off in the index, looking something like: ....by Dunv... yuk!) BTW, when's our star ace reporter going to interview the JW posters? :-) god, I love those threads! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. "Faking Cancer...by Seeker" Posted by Ginja on 19:29:07 6/16/2000 ...can be done, and has been done. Didn't any of you see Extra!? They did this big story on this woman who claimed she was dying of cancer. She shaved her head, stopped eating as much, and took laxatives to lose weight. She received gifts of money, supplies, sympathy, etc. Her husband and children (I think she had children, but not positive) were even duped! She convinced him she was dying and taking chemo! She was recently found out and exposed! She appologised to the world via Extra! She said she didn't know why she did it. I knew a girl who was always going to the doctor, claimed to have lukemia, and that she was having chemo, etc. She was a hypochondriac and wanted to be the center of attention (she was the youngest of 6) at all times! Don't tell me it can't be done! I've seen it. I don't know that Patsy did, but she might have. I'm going to see if I can find that story on extratv.com, if that's the right website addy. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "Dunvegan" Posted by Seashell on 19:28:29 6/16/2000 I think Ginja was referring to you and my heart breaks for you. There are so many poor, lost and abused children. How did you ever make it to adulthood sane and have loving relationships of your own? Again, your story reminds us of the church going folk - what is wrong with these religious zealots? The ordinary every day folks who can admit to their flaws are mostly OK, but those zealots - and PR and JR are zealots; arrogant, pompous, proud and sick! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 11. "Woman Faking Cancer...by Fly" Posted by Ginja on 19:30:56 6/16/2000 Seeker - That case was in my state, so I've seen some news reports about it. Didn't know it had been on Xtra. As I understand it, this case never involved extensive (if any) hospitalizations, much less treatment in a big NIH research program. The reports I read seemed to indicate that her family wasn't directly involved with any medical consultations or treatments. Amazing as that fraud was, it isn't even close to the level of fraud required were PR to have faked her cancer. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 12. "Fly...by Seeker" Posted by Ginja on 19:33:37 6/16/2000 She (the faker) was good enough to be featured on a national television program though. I e-mailed Extra! to see if they could send me the complete story. I seem to remember (but my memory is getting bad) that Extra! staff talked to her doctor and she went into elaborate detail concerning her treatment. The original story touched many, many people, physicians included who offered to help her in any way possible. I'm waiting to see if they will provide the whole thing, and I'll share what they send. OK? If you have some local newspaper info, could you dig it out for me? I'm always interested in the psychology of these types of people. Just a personal interest, not a professional one. We don't know for a fact that Patsy had stage IV cancer. We can only go on her word and those who she told (convinced) that she had it. If, from what I'm reading on this board, Dr. Beouf could be "bought off" (along with AH and other "prominent" people) couldn't they "hire" a doctor to collaborate her story? Again, I'm not saying she DID fake her illness, but that she could have, for the attention. IMHO It's obvious that she craves attention and has to be the center of it all the time. I haven't seen them (the Ramsey's) not be mentioned in the news lately. There is always something that pertains to them, or is linked to them (at least it seems like it). I think the longest I've not seen them mentioned is 3 months. Just my thoughts... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. "Seeker & fiddler...by Fly" Posted by Ginja on 19:36:10 6/16/2000 Seeker - I'd be interested in whatever other details you find (personal curiosity, too). The stories that appeared in our paper (sorry, didn't keep them) didn't match what you've provided. They just had the family and friends involved, no doctors (at least none treating her). I'm willing to buy an exaggeration of stage on PR's part, but I think anything beyond that is very, very unlikely. fiddler - Sorry I didn't respond to one of your points earlier. You are absolutely right that treatment and history are not the same. The primary argument I was addressing was the idea that JBR's history was abnormal and that Beuf, therefore, was a lousy doctor for not suspecting abuse. The experts said her history wasn't really abnormal. Maybe Beuf should have referred JBR because of her repeated episodes of sinusitis and coughs. Maybe not doing so was reasonable given the details of the problem. However, I believe it was the possible diagnosis of asthma that most people were saying demanded a specialist, and other treatment specifics that most people were leaping on as evidence of incompetance. I've never said Beuf should be MD of the year. I just don't think he deserves to be demonized as some here try to do. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 14. "Where's the Beuf?...by Edie Pratt" Posted by Ginja on 19:37:21 6/16/2000 ...does anyone know where he's practicing now, if at all? Or, is he selling shoes in a mall, saving for a second pair of slacks? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "Bummer! I tried...by Queen of the Nile" Posted by Ginja on 19:42:09 6/16/2000 ....and have no idea how I got a red font! Anyway... Nikki, your post #79 was magnificent! Actually, all your posts are great, but this one struck me. Outstanding! Dunvegan, thank you for sharing! I was struck by the similarities between yourself and JonBenet. You struck a chord in your second point regarding dismissive points of view...how true! And the fact that children are powerless to defend themselves...most especially when it's their own guardians who abuse them. God, and when you talked about 'that woman' taking a break from abusing you to answer the phone with such a cheery voice! That blows my mind. Yet how true. And unfortunately, I can picture not just Patsy, but also John, with their holier-than-thou attitudes, being just as manipulative and controlling. Your story is bittersweet, with so many parallels to JonBenet. As I was reading, I wondered if JonBenet was 'driven' in the same manner as you. To me, what really stands out is the fact that JonBenet's story happened to you almost 40 years ago. Nothing's changed! Supposedly society has opened up to expose abuses against children...they're supposed to have someone to turn to, someone to talk to, someone to help. And yet.....? Fly, truce! (unless you want to start a new thread...this one takes too long to load!) As far as your editing texts...give me a break...I didn't make that up! You had to post it at some point, because contrary to your beliefs, I don't make things up! I suppose I made the story up, too, that when you were a kid you fell on your head? :-) In post #85, you said something about the level of fraud required for Patsy to fake her cancer. I'm neither here nor there on this. However, she's prone to exaggerating. We've already contacted the NIH and found there were no stage iv survivors in her group. I'm not sure if that's an exaggeration or a lie on her part, but suffice it to say, if she exaggerated or lied about something like that, who's to say she's not been pulling our legs for 3 1/2 years on other issues. Like, "just a few Sundays"? Who was the poster who called the NIH? Was it Seashell? JW was on a roll with this issue back in late March (maybe earlier...when DOI was released). There was a lot of "fishiness" with an entire chapter dedicated to Patsy's cancer, diagnosis and treatment. She didn't give doctors names, she wasn't even referred by a doctor to the NIH, if I'm not mistaken. The NIH conducts test programs, but they work to a schedule. Patsy just "showed" up and demanded treatment. We were collecting information, pulling all the details together. We were trying to find out if Patsy was even in this test program. Participants are registered as numbers, no names. We got as far as learning their were no stage iv survivors. Once we found out "which" program Patsy was supposedly in, and "who" the doctors were administering it, one of us with access was going to contact those doctors. That slipped through the cracks. I'm going to email that poster and see where we left off and why. In the meantime, who was the poster who initially contacted the NIH and found out about the no stage iv survivors...I think she also found out which program it was and who the doctor in charge was...maybe even spoke to that doctor. Like I said, we dropped the ball. Let's pick it up. Seeker, you're not alone! I saw that show with the woman who faked her cancer. She was on Oprah with her husband and kids and got all kinds of money. She was overweight and no one said anything about that until after it was realized she scammed everyone. Then everyone sorta hit themselves in the forehead, like duh...we should've known she didn't have cancer, she didn't lose any weight, blah blah blah. The biggest scam was that her husband believed her! He really thought his poor, sick wife was dying! I felt so bad for him. But as Fly noted, I don't remember her actually "having" chemo treatments. I think she just said she was having them...but her husband didn't go with her, which is probably how she managed to pull the wool over his eyes. Oprah was hot! when she found out she had been scammed! Did Oprah do a followup? Good luck in your search...I'm anxious to rehear the whole story and how she pulled it all off. I'll email Szundi and pick her brain. In the meantime, I hope the posters who were involved in researching this in March come back in and pick up where they left off...or at least jog our memories as to where (and why) we didn't follow through. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "Edie...by Fly" Posted by Ginja on 19:43:06 6/16/2000 Somebody looked him up and posted on the first Beuf thread (now back a couple of pages worth of threads) that he was still listed as being in Boulder. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 17. "Dunvegan...by Darby" Posted by Ginja on 19:44:49 6/16/2000 I just wanted to comment on your post. What a horrific childhood you must have had. And you are right, nobody ever believes it can happen. Why is that? It's like people have faith in the statistics, but when it comes down to a real person summoning up the courage to tell the world that, "YES, IT HAPPENED TO ME!"...nobody believes. Was it happening to JonBenet? Well, she didn't have the best of parents, did she? One of them was able to murder her and the other helped to cover it all up. Oh, and she had been sexually assaulted while still alive the night of her murder--enough to draw blood. And she had a garrote tightened around her neck while still alive. And her vaginal opening had previously been eroded over time. Put that together with her very adult pageant costuming and demeanor. This child was being sexually abused. Thank you for speaking up for her. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "V_P" Posted by Ginja on 19:49:33 6/16/2000 I just screwed up cutting and pasting your last post, which answered my question as to who had made contact with NIH re our stage iv wonder...you said you thought it was AutumnBorn. Now we've got to find AutumnBorn! :-) This is the last post from the second thread. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ]