Justice Watch Discussion Board "SBTC-New Ideas???" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... SBTC-New Ideas???, Abby, 13:50:15, 6/18/2000 If MW is viable, darby, 14:27:01, 6/18/2000, (#1) Queen of the Initials, Ginja, 15:15:05, 6/18/2000, (#2) Don't Know, Paralegal, 16:29:26, 6/18/2000, (#3) Funny, momo, 16:32:55, 6/18/2000, (#4) Saved by the cross..., Jeanilou, 16:40:12, 6/18/2000, (#5) 2 thoughts on SBTC, Edie Pratt, 17:04:26, 6/18/2000, (#6) SBTC, sabrina, 17:10:02, 6/18/2000, (#7) She Broke the Contract?, fiddler, 17:16:37, 6/18/2000, (#8) Ginja,, Ribaldone, 17:46:21, 6/18/2000, (#9) SBTC, JR, 18:06:08, 6/18/2000, (#11) Saved by the Cross, starry, 18:02:12, 6/18/2000, (#10) I think it's simple, v_p, 19:20:51, 6/18/2000, (#17) One thought I can't shake.., RiverRat, 18:31:17, 6/18/2000, (#12) I don't know who, canadiana, 18:41:59, 6/18/2000, (#13) Canadiana, momo, 16:16:53, 6/20/2000, (#42) Yes!, Paralegal, 19:11:23, 6/18/2000, (#15) uh oh, what if she , Edie Pratt, 18:48:24, 6/18/2000, (#14) Speaking of Trona, Shaggy, 19:12:25, 6/18/2000, (#16) Just Thought Of..., Paralegal, 19:25:59, 6/18/2000, (#18) that "CREATURE", TexasGail, 19:35:50, 6/18/2000, (#19) Crimes Against Children Unit - San Bernadino, Shaggy, 20:33:14, 6/18/2000, (#20) Abby..., PegB, 23:04:00, 6/18/2000, (#21) CTBS, Luvsa Mystery, 06:15:51, 6/19/2000, (#23) ..the shame of it, Nikki, 05:46:47, 6/19/2000, (#22) Linguistically correct, pinker, 08:42:01, 6/19/2000, (#24) Pinker, Abby, 09:15:40, 6/19/2000, (#25) How about random letters that mean, Holly, 09:22:53, 6/19/2000, (#26) Nothing?, v_p, 09:26:55, 6/19/2000, (#27) lol, Luvsa Mystery, 14:12:21, 6/19/2000, (#30) S B T C, Edie Pratt, 10:03:37, 6/19/2000, (#28) LMAO edie, v_p, 13:02:55, 6/19/2000, (#29) Subic Bay Training Center, Seeker, 14:23:17, 6/19/2000, (#31) Seeker -- Good thinking, except,, Luvsa Mystery, 14:30:27, 6/19/2000, (#32) Luvs, except, Seeker, 14:57:40, 6/19/2000, (#33) Seeker, Luvsa Mystery, 15:08:01, 6/19/2000, (#34) ...another SBTC..., Dunvegan, 16:03:01, 6/19/2000, (#35) Luvs, I'm trying, Seeker, 16:14:34, 6/19/2000, (#36) Seeker, Luvsa Mystery, 16:29:41, 6/19/2000, (#37) I seem to remember, Seeker, 16:36:25, 6/19/2000, (#38) Hmmm, Luvsa Mystery, 18:21:02, 6/19/2000, (#39) I like, meltdown, 15:19:30, 6/20/2000, (#40) Linda Wilcox, river, 15:53:47, 6/20/2000, (#41) Subic Bay plaque, MJenn, 17:12:30, 6/20/2000, (#45) Alphabet Goop, Anton, 16:37:24, 6/20/2000, (#43) This one's for Cassie, Edie Pratt, 16:47:01, 6/20/2000, (#44) Subic Bay International Airport and SBTC (?), Dunvegan, 20:46:00, 6/20/2000, (#46) Survival Training and Subic Bay, Dunvegan, 21:11:37, 6/20/2000, (#48) John's navy stint, MJenn, 21:08:31, 6/20/2000, (#47) SBTC Building in the Philipines...., Dunvegan, 21:16:30, 6/20/2000, (#49) OK...this SBTC link is a weird coincidence..., Dunvegan, 21:58:39, 6/20/2000, (#50) Excellent, Dunvegan, MJenn, 00:29:01, 6/21/2000, (#51) MJenn, Luvsa Mystery, 06:55:37, 6/21/2000, (#58) It was a joke, Luvs, MJenn, 12:40:16, 6/21/2000, (#67) Humor is the only thing..., Dunvegan, 21:58:05, 6/21/2000, (#69) MJenn, Luvsa Mystery, 15:33:46, 6/21/2000, (#68) Phillipines, river, 04:27:12, 6/21/2000, (#52) News Brief, river, 04:42:39, 6/21/2000, (#53) ...I'm still thinking..., Dunvegan, 05:52:35, 6/21/2000, (#54) the wording, river, 06:39:28, 6/21/2000, (#55) River, Luvsa Mystery, 08:53:10, 6/21/2000, (#59) I put this, momo, 06:46:37, 6/21/2000, (#56) I'm with, Watching you, 06:47:16, 6/21/2000, (#57) Linda Wilcox, river, 09:16:12, 6/21/2000, (#60) River, Luvsa Mystery, 10:31:03, 6/21/2000, (#65) Luvs, and all, here is what I, Seeker, 09:26:38, 6/21/2000, (#62) Thanks Seeker, Luvsa Mystery, 10:20:42, 6/21/2000, (#64) ...LOL, momo!, Dunvegan, 09:25:08, 6/21/2000, (#61) ...another SBTC coincidence..., Dunvegan, 09:36:25, 6/21/2000, (#63) Not Significant, But..., shadow, 11:23:53, 6/21/2000, (#66) Coincidences???, JR, 19:22:39, 6/22/2000, (#70) Subic Bay Map with "Training Camp", Dunvegan, 22:02:56, 6/22/2000, (#71) I'm with you, Dun, MJenn, 16:19:41, 6/23/2000, (#72) What about Vietnam?, Ginja, 17:18:13, 6/23/2000, (#73) Ginja . . ., Anton, 10:49:43, 6/24/2000, (#80) ginja, Luvsa Mystery, 22:10:18, 6/23/2000, (#74) ...well...could be..., Dunvegan, 22:56:04, 6/23/2000, (#75) Call me crazy..., MJenn, 02:53:27, 6/24/2000, (#76) Luvsa Mystery, river, 04:20:43, 6/24/2000, (#77) river, Luvsa Mystery, 08:36:45, 6/24/2000, (#78) Luv, river, 09:15:09, 6/24/2000, (#79) river, Luvsa Mystery, 12:14:34, 6/24/2000, (#81) signed photo, river, 07:32:02, 6/26/2000, (#82) Thanks River, Luvsa Mystery, 08:48:20, 6/26/2000, (#83) Dunvegan, river, 15:32:06, 6/26/2000, (#84) victory?, Nandee, 15:42:01, 6/26/2000, (#85) SBTC, Edie Pratt, 15:55:57, 6/26/2000, (#86) sbtc, troy, 16:29:22, 6/26/2000, (#87) PMPT, river, 18:30:01, 6/26/2000, (#88) SBTC, guardian, 17:08:53, 6/27/2000, (#89) S.B.T.C, Rascal, 22:12:07, 6/27/2000, (#90) ................................................................... "SBTC-New Ideas???" Posted by Abby on 13:50:15 6/18/2000 I hate to bring up the whole MW thing again but I have been thinking and I was wondering if SBTC might stand for San Bernardino Trona California. Maybe this has been discussed before, but I thought I would just throw it out. Food for thought. I know Trona is where MW's mother lives and San Bernardino is close by. Am I correct in assuming this? Flame away! Abby [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL Abby ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "If MW is viable" Posted by darby on 14:27:01 6/18/2000 then I have wondered if SBTC might have some special meaning. In fact, your suggestion came to mind. Another idea is that it's some kind of code that would serve as a warning to who-knows-who not to tell. Or, it might mean nothing. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "Queen of the Initials" Posted by Ginja on 15:15:05 6/18/2000 Another title for Patsy. I can't remember if all her correspondence signature lines were contained the long line of letters, or just correspondence with Stine. I'm going to go out on a limb and disagree that SBTC is some kind of signal or finger pointing to MW (e.g., her mother's address). Unless she just threw out clues of all makes and kinds to further confuse the cops. For example, Stine's salary was $100K, with a bonus of $18K, $118K; MW's mother lives in San Bernadino (or wherever), so SBTC. All the little clues have significant meaning to Patsy. So rather than $118K pointing to Stine, for example, I'd think more along the lines of her favorite psalm. SBTC could embrace how JBR died, e.g., sacrificed by the cord. Placement might give it more meaning, as well. It's preceded by Victory! That's significant, too. So maybe instead of "sacrificed", it could be "silenced". Does anyone remember what program showed Patsy's letters and how she ended them with the long stream of letters? Maybe going through it again, we'd have better direction as to how she pulled it together. I remember one being something like: PPRBAJWVU = Patsy Paugh Ramsey Bachelor of Arts in Journalism from West Virginia University. Anyone? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "Don't Know" Posted by Paralegal on 16:29:26 6/18/2000 what show you mean, Ginja, but I do remember the context discussed in it. She IS a fanatic of anachronyms, as are gov't. types (no offense to anyone). This would be significant if we're talking military-type behaviors. But how about San Bernardino Trona Club? Or South Boulder Trona Club? If MW's offenders are truly connected to Boulderites unknown, this is a possible link...Just wandering thru possibilities. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "Funny" Posted by momo on 16:32:55 6/18/2000 I think they have a thread on Trona at the cesspool. I have always believed it to mean Saved By The Cross because of the word Victory. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "Saved by the cross..." Posted by Jeanilou on 16:40:12 6/18/2000 gets my vote. Hands down. Jeani [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "2 thoughts on SBTC" Posted by Edie Pratt on 17:04:26 6/18/2000 #1 SHOULDN'T BE THAT COMPLICATED or, #2 STINE'S'LL BUY THIS CRAP [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "SBTC" Posted by sabrina on 17:10:02 6/18/2000 Saved by the cross makes alot of sense to me. (I never did buy this Subic Bay stuff) Or else, Patsy just made up some letters to put at the end of the ransom note to foil and baffle the authorities. (and us!) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 8. "She Broke the Contract?" Posted by fiddler on 17:16:37 6/18/2000 She Bears the Censure? For some reason, I seem to be going along the guilt/sin/penance track here. I don't think that SBTC is going to turn out to "mean" anything, in the sense that all of us will sit up, knock our foreheads, and say, of course, why didn't I see it sooner.... I think whatever it is, is some private reference between Patsy and John. We can guess, and for all we know, we've hit on it already, but IMO it's not going to be any kind of "key" to the case. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "Ginja," Posted by Ribaldone on 17:48:04 6/18/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 17:48:04, 6/18/2000 wasn't that initial reference in Thomas' book? Well whereever it was, I remember it to. I think Patsy's was just as you have it but minus the West Virginia University. I think it was: PPRBAJ And wasn't Barbara Fernie the friend that did the same thing. It was her and Patsy's secret signatures. Man these women were juvenile. SBTC = Saved by the Cross, IMO But I love Edie's version: "Stine'll Buy This Crap" Great! And so true. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 11. "SBTC" Posted by JR on 18:06:08 6/18/2000 IMHO I think Saved By The Cross is a logical choice. Additionally, depending on who's drawing of Jesus on the cross we see, sometimes his arms are tied togeather above his head VS. the traditional arms out to the side rendition. JMHO. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. "Saved by the Cross" Posted by starry on 18:02:12 6/18/2000 is what SBTC means, I believe. We all know what a great Christian loving normal family those Scamsey's are. Of course, PR would end the Ransom note with her utter devotion to God. These people have gotten away with murdering their child and they make me sick. JMO and I know they'll pay someday. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 17. "I think it's simple" Posted by v_p on 19:20:51 6/18/2000 and goes along with all the other "pat" lines in the ransom novel. Stand By Till Contacted V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 12. "One thought I can't shake.." Posted by RiverRat on 18:31:17 6/18/2000 Spouse Before The Child? I asked about this on one of my first days but it wasn't answered and with all the whirling info I am not real sure if it was one of my thoughts or if it had been covered already. Anybody know? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. "I don't know who" Posted by canadiana on 18:41:59 6/18/2000 said it before, but I still like 'Some B*tch That's Crazy'! Here's one: She Belongs To Christ [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 42. "Canadiana" Posted by momo on 16:16:53 6/20/2000 I was on a roll a few months ago when we had another SBTC thread. I came up with that one as well as about 20 others. Here's a few more. She Be Too Crazy Strangled By The Cord Struck By The Club Sacrificed Because They Caved Some Believed They Couldn't Susan Bennett The Clueless Send Back The Crazies Saved By The Cover-up [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "Yes!" Posted by Paralegal on 19:11:23 6/18/2000 >said it before, but I still like >'Some B*tch That's Crazy'! >Here's one: >She Belongs To Christ Oh I do like THIS one, canadiana! It is so appropriate, isn't it? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 14. "uh oh, what if she " Posted by Edie Pratt on 18:48:24 6/18/2000 mispelled it? LOL, she really meant JBLC= JONBENET'S LAST CHRISTMAS. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "Speaking of Trona" Posted by Shaggy on 19:12:25 6/18/2000 While reading through the bulleten board for the city of Trona lots of names come up. Several of them were discussed at the swamp(actually some very interesting research by a couple of them). What I'm curious to know about is why none of them ever mentioned that there seem to be some Archulettas(sp?) in Trona. So, not only are there Boykin connections to Trona but there are also Archuletta connections that are as yet undefined. Anyone else know of any other connections to between Trona and the people surrounding the JBR murder case? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "Just Thought Of..." Posted by Paralegal on 19:25:59 6/18/2000 this one as I was stepping into the shower. How about Spared By The Child? If JB was the promised sacrifice for PR's miraculous healing from cancer, it would make sense. Kind of like an Abraham/Isaac twist. And we all know how PR has mastered disassociating herself from "the child." Ok, back to the shower! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 19. "that "CREATURE"" Posted by TexasGail on 19:35:50 6/18/2000 How about "Silenced By The Creature". [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 20. "Crimes Against Children Unit - San Bernadino" Posted by Shaggy on 20:56:49 6/18/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 20:56:49, 6/18/2000 http://www.co.san-bernardino.ca.us/sheriff/stations/crimes_against_children_unit.htm Very interesting to read. I don't know that the county I live in has a unit such as this. I wonder how many child sex rings there are in that county. Enough I guess to merit mentioning that this unit investigates them. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 21. "Abby..." Posted by PegB on 23:04:00 6/18/2000 ...Ginja is right, Patsy was said to have been Queen of initial use! I have been doing some research on SBTC lately myself. I will post some interesting things I found, maybe one of you super-sleuths could dig a little more. I too think this has strong meaning between the writer of the note and the one/ones intended to read the note. This first group is a coalition of hundreds of small businesses, wonder if Access Graphics was a member at one time? Also this group is loosely tied to NIH. I listed some of the Colorado based companies. http://www.sbtc.org/Overview/Default.htm Small Business Technology Coalition Owen Research, Inc. 2525 Arapahoe Avenue,E4-262 Boulder CO 80302 PBC Inc. 7000 N. Broadway L107 Denver CO 80221 OPHIR Corp. (Founder) 10184 West Belleview Avenue, #200 Littleton CO 80127 Lightwave Electronics (Founder) 1161 San Antonio Road Mountain View CA 94043 Nielsen Engineering & Research, Inc. (Founder) 526 Clyde Avenue Mt. View CA 94043 JSA Consulting, Inc. 599 N. Mathilda Avenue, #110 Sunnyvale CA 94086 Coherent Technologies, Inc. 655 Aspen Ridge Drive Lafayette CO 80026 ADA Technologies, Inc. (Founder) 304 Inverness Way So., #365 Englewood CO 80112 Next - the small foriegn faction?? http://www.sotramar.be/Company.html S.B.T.C. was also founded in 1969 by the french COSITRAF-GROUP and was specialized in transport and export of iron and steel products. French exportinfluence was very important and the company was taken over in 1988 by Walter Fretz in order to combine these french traffics with the existing main swiss export traffics via the port of Antwerp. ATLAS SHIPPING AND FORWARDING was taken over in 1992 by SOTRAMAR and was a well-known forwarding company specialized in traffics of carpets, textiles and imports of coffee, cacao and cotton products. In 1992 the activities of the three companies were merged in one new entity S.B.T.C. - SOTRAMAR N.V. Also- Small Business Training Company markets and supports flexible training options for all small businesses. As a registered training organisation we are able to back up training as well as assist with administration. We are proudly supported by Australian Business And finally - ACRONYMS AND ABBREVIATIONS (from The Dream Is Alive - Space Flight and Operations Earth Orbit) SBTC Speed Brake/thrust Controller I think it may have refered to a Small Business Training Center. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 23. "CTBS" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 06:15:51 6/19/2000 This is not a new idea. It comes from ST's book as I recall, but I think it's the most logical answer to the mystery of S.B.T.C. C_ontend, O LORD with those who contend with me; fight against those who fight against me. T_ake up shield and buckler; arise and come to my aid. B_randish spear and javelin against those who pursue me. S_ay to my soul, I am your salvation. Ps 35:1-3 I think the most logic answer to SBTC is that it is the reverse order of the first letters of the first words of the first four sentences of Psalm 35. Which are: C_ontend T_ake B_randish S_ay CTBS = reversed SBTC It is the only occurrance in the Bible that this sequence of letters so occurs either forward or reverse. And since the Bible was found opened to Psalm 35 and 36, to the very page where this occurs is too much a coincidence (IMO) not to have some relationship to SBTC. Given PR's love of initials and propensity for interpreting things like purple ribbon as signs from above, I can imagine that she saw CTBS in Psalm 35 and realized it was the reverse of SBTC (Saved by the Cross) and perhaps interpreted it as a sign. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 22. "..the shame of it" Posted by Nikki on 05:46:47 6/19/2000 ..Saved By the Cross is pretty good coupled with the Victory... if a certain someone had the disillusional idea that her child would be saved from what..incest ? ..if she was Strangled by the Cord or Saved by the Cord..etc..or maybe this person was just nutty enough to stage a molesting/murder escapade after she bashed the kid with a blunt object over a mistep or a wet bed..she could have changed those sheets, ya know..she would not have left the dam things on the bed.. ..the question still remains ..did a Black Queen .. box up her little doll ..and send her to a place ..far, far away? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 24. "Linguistically correct" Posted by pinker on 08:42:01 6/19/2000 Patsy used acronyms in salutations and signing off her letters or notes. If you follow that lead the initials must represent a personalized description, or adjectives she has given to herself at that moment. That is why I believe S ome B itch T hat's c razy fits to a T. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 25. "Pinker" Posted by Abby on 09:15:40 6/19/2000 I think your interpratation of SBTC is Great. You hit the nail squarly on the head. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL Abby ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 26. "How about random letters that mean" Posted by Holly on 09:22:53 6/19/2000 NOTHING? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 27. "Nothing?" Posted by v_p on 09:26:55 6/19/2000 Nah, there's no "N" in it. :P V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 30. "lol" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 14:12:21 6/19/2000 >Nah, there's no "N" in it. >:P >V. You could be right Holly, but given what we know about PR, I doubt that it means nothing. Assuming of course that she is the author. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 28. "S B T C" Posted by Edie Pratt on 10:03:37 6/19/2000 SHOWER BROKE THIS CHRISTMAS [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 29. "LMAO edie" Posted by v_p on 13:02:55 6/19/2000 That's the best one yet. Maybe she was getting a whiff of herself while she was writing the note and that's how she came up with it. Peeeeeuuuuuuuuwwwwwweeeeee! lol V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 31. "Subic Bay Training Center" Posted by Seeker on 14:23:17 6/19/2000 makes sense for the following reasons (at least to me) 1 The Subic Bay Training Center is located in the Philipines where they still perform 2 Garroting & 3 beheadings as a common practice of killing. JonBenet was 1 Garroted, 2 the "ransom" note said they were a "small foreign faction" (Philipines is a small island country) 3 would behead her 4 Victory! S.B.T.C. gives me the impression that it was someone with a military backround. I still believe Patsy wrote what John dictated to her and added her own accronyms out of habit. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 32. "Seeker -- Good thinking, except," Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 14:30:27 6/19/2000 Except that there's no such thing as Subic Bay Training Center. I've researched it online and couldn't find a single reference for a training center in Subic Bay. I've read letters of former service men who served there and they never once mentioned a training center either. Otherwise that would have been my choice as well. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 33. "Luvs, except" Posted by Seeker on 14:57:40 6/19/2000 Subic Bay Training Center does exist. There was a picture of it in Ramsey's bedroom with that exact phrase at the bottom to identify it. I believe it is a name used by military men that were sent there to train. It's actually (formally) called something else. I'll try to find the reference. It's either in PMPT or ST's book (also), I believe. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 34. "Seeker" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 15:08:01 6/19/2000 That's okay. I know the reference, it was ST's book I believe. It was a former housekeeper or babysitter that said that she saw the picture with that title engraved upon it, wasn't it? I haven't ever heard that confirmed by evidence however, have you? That's why I read a lot of letters of servicemen formerly stationed at Subic Bay. I thought sure if they referred to Subic Bay as a training center or if there were a building so designated as a training center in Subic Bay, they'd likely mention it in their letters wherein they were reminiscing about their tour of duty at Subic Bay. I'd like it if you are right -- I just haven't seen the evidence except for the claim of the former housekeeper/babysitter and I wonder how much weight her testimony would carry if the picture cannot be produced and/or it can be proven otherwise that Subic Bay was sometimes referred to as SBTC. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 35. "...another SBTC..." Posted by Dunvegan on 16:03:01 6/19/2000 Suing for Burke Takes Cajones. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 36. "Luvs, I'm trying" Posted by Seeker on 16:14:34 6/19/2000 to find an archive of an interview John did where he mentions his military backround. I thought Steve Thomas said he actually saw this photograph himself? Maybe I'm mistaken... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 37. "Seeker" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 16:29:41 6/19/2000 I don't believe ST claimed to have seen the picture, but then my memory ain't what it used to be -- lol. My husband was in the navy and I asked him last night if he had to learn to tie various knots while in basic training. He said yes, very affirmatively. If my memory serves me JR was in the navy around the same time as my husband. I was amazed that JR would point his finger at FW as someone who may have some special knowledge of knot tying given that JR was in the navy and owned a sailboat and most likely knows a lot about knot tying himself. Also, I find it hard to believe that JR served at Subic Bay without also learning of it's history re: garrotes. I suspect he knew about such instruments of death. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 38. "I seem to remember" Posted by Seeker on 16:36:25 6/19/2000 that John was not IN the military, but serving in a "consultant" capacity. I'll try to find that transcript. I'm ex-military too. Yes you do learn to tie specific types of knots, my ex-sister in law is from the Philipines and that's how I know about those "ritual" style killings (which to them is common practice, like our drive-by's are to us). I don't believe there is any way John could have been there without learning these customs. I'll keep digging. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 39. "Hmmm" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 18:21:02 6/19/2000 I'm pretty sure JR was an officer in the navy Seeker. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 40. "I like" Posted by meltdown on 15:19:30 6/20/2000 Santa Bear, The Clue [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 41. "Linda Wilcox" Posted by river on 15:53:47 6/20/2000 It's always been said that the Subic Bay plaque was in a drawer or closet in the basement. But a former housekeeper, Linda Wilcox, who worked for the Ramseys until September 1995, described a large foto with Subic Bay Training Center on it. This was NOT a plaque. She said it hung over John's desk. She remembered many other details about the house, including a poem she had memorized that John had written to his other daughter, so she seemed to have a pretty good memory. She said in PMPT: pp 258-259 of the hard-back book. "I don't remember if I told [the police] about the large photograph John had of an aircraft carrier. On the bottom of the picture in fancy writing were the words, "Subic Bay Training Center". The script was faint because it blended in with the water, so the words were hard to read. It used to hang behind his desk in the bedroom." This interview was from PMPT, but I don't know if it's been discredited. I know there are some posters who doubt Schiller's reliability. Anyway, I wonder if this is the same one the police found in the basement after the crime or something different. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 45. "Subic Bay plaque" Posted by MJenn on 17:13:23 6/20/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 17:13:23, 6/20/2000 was in a storage closet in the basement. It's listed in an inventory of the basement in PMPT on p. 109, paperback edition. It would have to be extreme coincidence if it's not all connected in some way: S.B.T.C., John's navy stint at Subic Bay with its history of garotting, the garotte-type device found on his dead daughter. Do you think he ever discussed his experiences at Subic Bay with anyone in his family, or with friends over drinks? Ever talked about his navy stories with anyone, mentioned the strange garotting rituals he learned about? Or maybe his kids related to friends what Dad told them about how they executed people in the Phillipines, and how he showed them how they make a garotte there? I find it completely incredible that no one in their whole circle ever heard or saw anything that makes them wonder, because someone in that circle is a murderer. I can't believe John and Patsy can't take the myriad clues that are so close to their own life and at least come up with an intelligent guess as to who did this. (I mean, besides SKETCH MAN.) Either they're covering for Burke because John is rich and can buy that kind of loyalty, or they're covering for themselves or someone else because...pick your reasons. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 43. "Alphabet Goop" Posted by Anton on 16:37:24 6/20/2000 Strange Behavior, Tough Chit Susan Bennett To Contact Shit, Broke The Child Santa Beat The Child Sorry, Better Take Care Sue, Betray, Take Cover Successful Bussiness, Tiny Child Spelling Behind The Curve Sad But True, Child [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 44. "This one's for Cassie" Posted by Edie Pratt on 16:47:01 6/20/2000 SORRY 'BOUT THAT, CHIEF [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 46. "Subic Bay International Airport and SBTC (?)" Posted by Dunvegan on 20:46:00 6/20/2000 From: History of Subic Bay International Airport http://www.subicnet.com/sbma/airhist.htm 25 July 1956, after five years of construction, CUBI Point was established as a Naval Air Station. It was named in honor of the Construction Battalion 1 (CUB1) that undertook the challenge. CUB1 point operated on all weather, 9,000-foot runway capable of handling aircraft from all ships. The airfield operated twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. NAS CUBI Point provided major training capability in the Western Pacific for Navy and Marine aircrews. 04-17 February 1998 PNP ASG conducted Aviation Security Training attended by 56 participants from SBIA, SBMA LED, Fire Dept., and PNP ASG from Angeles, Zamboanga & Olongapo City. What are the dates of John's pacific basin service? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 48. "Survival Training and Subic Bay" Posted by Dunvegan on 21:11:37 6/20/2000 From http://www.phuket.loxinfo.co.th/~tomas/subicbay.html Subic Bay: Survival strategy By Tomas Larsson It may just be a coincidence that they teach jungle survival skills at Subic Bay. But it's a fitting illustration of the abilities displayed since the local economy was threatened with ruin when the US Navy pulled out in November 1992. The Filipino jungle experts who lost their jobs training US personnel at Subic Bay Naval Station now make a living entertaining visiting tourist groups with their skilful use of whatever nature provides. And, much like the jungle warriors who make a fire using only bamboo sticks and a knife, Subic Bay as a whole has recently achieved a lot by using very little. Seems that Filipino jungle experts played a part in training at Subic Bay...wonder if the garrotte was one of the killing methods they trained in? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 47. "John's navy stint" Posted by MJenn on 21:08:31 6/20/2000 Can't put my hands on the exact dates right now; until someone can, I do know John graduated from MSU in '66, then did his navy duty at Subic Bay, and afterward returned to MSU for his Masters degree and finished that around '71, I believe. What's a navy tour of duty in '66 or 67? 2, 3 or 4 years? Well, that's a general idea I can give you now. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 49. "SBTC Building in the Philipines...." Posted by Dunvegan on 21:16:30 6/20/2000 From Philippines: Country Commercial Guide - FY-1999 http://www.state.gov/www/about_state/business/com_guides/1999/eastasia/phil99_11.html SBTC Bldg., 6776 Ayala Ave., Makati City Phone : (632) 867-6788 Fax : (632) 813-2069 E-mail: secb@mnl.sequel.net security.bank.library@usa.net [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 50. "OK...this SBTC link is a weird coincidence..." Posted by Dunvegan on 21:58:39 6/20/2000 Seems to be a missionary's page oh his letters home, i.e., something not at all involved with JonBenet's murder...but the power of coincidence can be awsome, sometimes... http://www.neumc.com/Ram_Past.htm One technical note -- if you are mailing anything to us, please use the address on our most recent (November) newsletter. The address on our previous newsletters is the SBTC address. We will be moving that office this month. The address I've written is our home address. Signing off for now, wishing all of you a wonderful season of Advent. In America I expect your are inundated with Christmas hoopla, most of which is far from Christ-focused. Where we are there is no sign that such a day as Christmas even exists! In both of our cases, let's commit to our God that we will prepare for HIS coming and prepare room in our hearts to receive Him afresh this Christmas. Grace and Peace, Jim Ramsay Karaganda, Kazakstan There are several mentions of Christmas, and several times the word "victory" appears in the text. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 51. "Excellent, Dunvegan" Posted by MJenn on 00:29:01 6/21/2000 You're turning me into a conspiracy theorist. Wonder how much money has been made by those who went in and profitted when the U.S. Navy was forced out? One of the most profitable was Fed Ex CEO Frederick Smith, who just happened to have served in the navy at Subic Bay during the Vietnam War. Wonder if he knows John? Acer computer co. locates there: does John know these people, in a business sense, of course? And the minister may just be one weird coincidence, but his church is connected to many other religious organizations, like the Promise Keepers, an ultra-right organization that could be linked to Gary Bauer and Dr. Dobson, who wrote that book "Children at Risk" found on the shelf in the Ramsey's bedroom. And what about the Swedish Guy, from Stockholm, Larsson? Who specializes in writing about Asian business development? Are you trying to make me a crazy person, Dunvegan? Can this stuff be linked to this murder? Are you Deepthroat? Are you just very clever, or sadistic? Maybe a sadistic masochist? What do you know, and when did you know it? I'm reading, I'm reading. But I'll tell you one thing: if the Ramseys are crazy enough to weave all this into their provocative little ransom note, somebody better stop them, quick! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 58. "MJenn" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 06:55:37 6/21/2000 >And the minister may just be one weird >coincidence, but his church is connected to many >other religious organizations, like the Promise >Keepers, an ultra-right organization that could >be linked to Gary Bauer and Dr. Dobson, who >wrote that book "Children at Risk" found on the >shelf in the Ramsey's bedroom. Trying to make a conspiracy out of the Ramsey's owning a book written by Dr. Dobson is like trying to make a conspiracy out of a cook owning a Julia Child cookbook. Dr. Dobson is very well known and respected in Christian circles. You're likely to find his books in any Christian home where there are young children and parents who are concerned about raising them. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 67. "It was a joke, Luvs" Posted by MJenn on 12:40:16 6/21/2000 Sorry, I have a very dry sense of humor. But, I was poking fun at the wild theories I read everyday that are just about as convoluted. Deepthroat was a character in the Watergate scandel. John wrote the killer was a "sadistic masochist" in his book, I've been told. I don't know who Dunvegan is, but I hope he/she got the humor; didn't mean to upset anyone. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 69. "Humor is the only thing..." Posted by Dunvegan on 21:58:05 6/21/2000 ...that makes sense, sometimes...I thought your post was hilarious, MJenn! Obviously, if you take a look at the above posts, you can tell that I've been working the boolean strings and the search engines overtime. It just started feeling really weird when the search engines kept kicking back all those wild synchronisms...so, I posted a few thinking that coincidence can be an amazing (and confounding) thing. I certainly don't think that even if John/Patsy had a Cray supercomputer hidden in that basement in Boulder they could have contrived all the extraneous coincidences that occur in relation to this crime. ...the Ramsey's have been phenomenally lucky devils... ...so far...but luck changes, even if people don't. I'm waiting for that slip, aren't you? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 68. "MJenn" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 15:33:46 6/21/2000 Oh MJenn, did I sound upset? Sorry, I didn't mean to. LOL I'm not the least bit upset. You know, I have the same problem with my own sense of humor. It's so darn easy to be misunderstood in this medium. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 52. "Phillipines" Posted by river on 04:27:12 6/21/2000 There were many incidents between Navy men and Phillipine women over the years which produced thousands of illegitimate children. Women were selling themselves because everyone was so poor. (still are) Illegitimacy ran high. (Birth control in Catholic Phillipines is illegal.) The Phillipine Senate kicked the US Subic Bay Naval Base out of the Phillipines in 1992. Until then, Subic Bay was one of our largest and most strategic naval bases. Is there a connection? Maybe. Surely, they had training centers there. Why would the housekeeper make up the story of the photograph? Most people discount the foto, but why would she invent such a story? She didn't seem to have a grudge against the Ramseys from the interview in the book. I once had a bunch of URLS about Subic Bay and that period, but will have to search again. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 53. "News Brief" Posted by river on 04:53:58 6/21/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 04:53:58, 6/21/2000 News briefs, part 2 U.S. Hands Over Subic Base The Washington Post MANILA, Philippines The United States ends 94 years of military presence in the Philippines today when about 800 Marines and sailors formally hand over the last portion of a U.S. naval base and sail out of Subic Bay. They leave behind up to $3 billion worth of facilities on one of the largest U.S. military installations overseas, as well as a wild liberty town that now faces the uncertainties of trying to transform itself into a commercial port and industrial center. They also forsake thousands of children fathered with Filipinas, many of them bargirls in Olongapo, a city of about 300,000 people adjacent to Subic Bay Naval Station about 50 miles northwest of Manila. And they depart amid controversies over alleged toxic wastes that critics say remain on the base and over plans for future access to Philippine ports and airfields. The U.S. government insists that, despite relinquishing its last military base in Southeast Asia, the United States will remain a Pacific power and continue to project its forces across the region. But there is a widespread perception that the departure from Subic Bay reflects a growing U.S. military disengagement that could unsettle confidence in the stability of the economically booming area and lead other countries, notably China and Japan, to undertake more active roles. The U.S. Navy's pullout from the Philippines comes as a result of the Philippine Senate's rejection last year of a treaty that would have extended the American military presence in the country for at least another decade in return for more than $2 billion in aid. The U.S. Air Force last year withdrew from Clark Air Base, 50 miles north of the capital, after the eruption of the nearby Mount Pinatubo volcano buried the region in volcanic ash. Manila gave the Navy until the end of this year to withdraw, which it has been doing progressively. http://www-tech.mit.edu/V112/N60/briefs2.60w.html I'm sure the article about John Ramsey and the $$$ Lockeed merger didn't just appear in a Boulder newspaper. Mergers like that appear in business newspapers all over the world. What am I implying? I'm implying 'What if John fathered a child there and the child grew up very poor or even died?' Revenge killing? Perhaps. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 54. "...I'm still thinking..." Posted by Dunvegan on 05:52:35 6/21/2000 ..."Ramsey-centric" thoughts (hmmm, just like John and Patsy) regarding the Subic Bay-SBTC connections. I've tried to squeeze my eyes wide shut, and put myself in John's tight little brogues...and I come up with: If I (John) dictated/wrote the note, I would not mention any acronym that touched on my life, unless my thought was to point to a specific type of intruder/motive. So, I pretended to write/dictate such a note, and used acronyms that had meaning in my life (obscure stuff, but things I remembered from my past) and it makes one recoil to include them so closely with the evidence that is supposed to point away from me...unless I wanted to point specifically to a particular type of perp, and manufacture a vague connection to some type that might have a grudge against me. (Does this wording make sense?) Of course, if Patsy wrote the note alone, perhaps its a purposeful pointer to John. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 55. "the wording" Posted by river on 06:39:28 6/21/2000 makes sense if you are convinced John wrote or dictated the note. The note does refer to 'his business' and a foreign faction. No names are mentioned. That, I can see as pointing the finger to a vague outsider. But Subic Bay, or SBTC, seems so long ago and far away. Would he have thought of it? And if he did, why mention those letters and not AG or the name of the foreign faction? Imo, something doesn't jell about that. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 59. "River" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 08:53:10 6/21/2000 I agree! Seems too easy. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 56. "I put this" Posted by momo on 06:46:37 6/21/2000 at the top in response to another poster. Susan Bennett The Clueless [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 57. "I'm with" Posted by Watching you on 06:47:16 6/21/2000 momo. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 60. "Linda Wilcox" Posted by river on 09:18:23 6/21/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 09:18:23, 6/21/2000 Because of her detailed interview with Schiller, I have believed for a long time that Linda Wilcox did see a photograph of an anti-aircraft carrier hanging over the desk of John Ramsey with SBTC written on it. Where or why would she come up with such a story? That's why (though I've been criticized for believing it) I do think that SBTC is connected in some way with Subic Bay and possibly with the murder. There's a thousand ways to make SBTC into a phrase, but 'Saved by the Cross' though it has a certain lyrical rhythm to it, has no connection (in my mind) with the brutal murder of this little girl either by outsiders or the parents. So, I believe Linda W. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 65. "River" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 10:31:03 6/21/2000 I agree L. Wilcox wouldn't make up such a thing. BUT, when did she say she saw this photo? Before the SBTC was made public or after? If it was before, her claim would carry great weight. But, memory is a funny thing. The photo may have said Subic Bay Navel Station, or something similar, but when the ransom note became public knowledge, she may have just thought the photo read: Subic Bay Training Center. John denies there is, or rather, was such a place. Seems easy enough to prove him wrong, but I've yet to see anyone do it. What are the odds that that was a one of a kind photo? Ms. Wilcox may be right -- but where's the proof? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 62. "Luvs, and all, here is what I" Posted by Seeker on 09:26:38 6/21/2000 was able to find. The following is a transcript from a video taped deposition. Edited for length of content,if you wish to read the entire thing go to: http://www.thedailycamera.com/extra/ramsey/1999/0206deposition.html Here is what I found (I must have gotten the "consultant" info mixed up since he was supposedly a "consultant" after he moved to Atlanta, for AG) begining in middle of page 9 the "questioner" is non other than Lee Hill! 10 Q. Very briefly, I was going to ask you some 11 biographical questions. I understand that you're from 12 Michigan originally? 13 A. Originally from Nebraska. I was born in 14 Nebraska, left there at the end of the 6th grade, moved to 15 Michigan. 16 Q. And you attended Michigan State University? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. As did I. 19 A. Okay. 20 Q. I was going to ask you, did you ever live on 21 campus? 22 A. I lived in -- I did. 23 Q. Do you remember the dorms or what they looked 24 like? 25 A. I remember the dorm well. Emmons Hall, perhaps. ---------------------------------------------- Page 10 1 Q. I lived in Snyder Phillips which was one of the 2 old Gothic -- one of the original dormitory buildings. 3 What did you major in? 4 A. Electrical engineering. 5 Q. When did you attend? 6 A. I think I graduated from high school in 1961. 7 So I started that fall and then went through 1966 and then 8 went on for graduate studies which were interrupted by 9 Navy service. 10 Q. It saddens me to confess that I also share naval 11 service experience with you. What type of work did you do 12 with the Navy? 13 A. I was in the civil engineer corps and went 14 through OCS, officer candidate school. 15 Q. At Newport? 16 A. At Newport. 17 Q. Were you in NROTC? 18 A. No. 19 Q. So you graduated Michigan State with a 20 undergraduate degree in what year? 21 A. 1966. 22 Q. Was that a BS degree? 23 A. Uh-huh. 24 Q. Is that when you enrolled at OCS? 25 A. Yeah. --------------------------------------------- Page 11 1 Q. Were you drafted? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Just volunteered? 4 A. Uh-huh, yes. 5 Q. After you completed OCS, where did you go next 6 for training in the Navy? 7 A. I went to Port Waneenee, California, which is 8 the civil engineer corps school. 9 Q. How long were you there? 10 A. A couple months. I don't remember the duration, 11 but it was 10 weeks maybe. 12 Q. What was your next stop in the Navy? 13 A. Then I was assigned to the Philippines, Subic 14 Bay. 15 Q. What unit were you in? 16 A. I was with the public works center. 17 Q. Were you an ensign at that time? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. What type of work did you do with the public 20 works center? 21 A. I was a facilities engineer and I had 22 responsibility for the naval supply depot facilities, as I 23 recall, most of the time I was there. 24 Q. Do you remember your commanding officer at that 25 time? ------------------------------------ Page 12 1 A. When I got there, I believe it was Captain 2 Laland. 3 Q. Can we spell that for the court reporter's 4 convenience? 5 A. I'd be taking a guess. I think it was 6 L-a-l-a-n-d. I think. 7 Q. Thanks. How was he as a CO? 8 A. A gentleman. 9 Q. You're lucky. I was an aviation intelligence 10 officer, so I went through ASCS in Pensacola and ended up 11 in the 14th Squadron out of Miramar and deployed on 12 America, did an Indian Ocean cruise via the Med. 13 Did you ever deploy? Were you ever at sea? 14 A. No, I wasn't. 15 Q. That's the only way to be in the Navy. How long 16 were you at Subic? 17 A. It was approximately two years. I don't 18 remember exactly. 19 Q. During that time, did you ever get to come back 20 home or was it an uninterrupted stay? 21 A. It was uninterrupted. 22 Q. During that time, were you able to travel at all 23 through the rest of the -- 24 A. We traveled a bit, yeah, on R&R. 25 Q. Do you remember what countries you visited ----------------------------------------------- Page 13 1 during that time? 2 A. We visited Japan, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Thailand. 3 I think that was it. 4 Q. Were you required to maintain a security 5 clearance? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. What level of security clearance did you have? 8 A. Top secret. 9 Q. Was it compartmented also or a standard gen-cert 10 top secret clearance, if you remember? 11 A. I don't remember. 12 Q. If you don't remember, it was probably gen-cert? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. And that was a result of -- was it a special 15 background investigation, do you know? 16 A. As I recall, it was, yeah. 17 Q. SBI by the defense investigative service? 18 A. The FBI or somebody. I don't remember who did 19 it. 20 Q. How long did you remain in the Navy? 21 A. I was on active duty a little over three years I 22 think and then I stayed in the reserves for another -- 23 gosh, I don't know, eight years maybe. 24 Q. Did you drill at all? 25 A. I did. --------------------------------------------- Page 14 1 Q. What units did you drill with? 2 A. I was with the -- this was in Atlanta. I was 3 with the naval air station, Cecil Field group for a while. 4 And then I was with the officer in charge of construction 5 for -- gosh, I don't remember -- the southeast or -- I 6 forget the unit name. It was a civil engineer corps unit. 7 Q. This is the one-weekend-a-month situation? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Did you ever do the two weeks active duty 10 stints? 11 A. Uh-huh. 12 Q. Do you remember places? 13 A. Cecil Field in Florida several times. That's 14 the only one I remember. 15 Q. Throughout your reserve duty, did you maintain 16 your same security clearance? 17 A. I believe so. 18 Q. Have you ever had a current clearance revoked? 19 A. Not that I know of. 20 Q. Leaping ahead, from the termination of your 21 naval career to date, at any time during that period have 22 you received and maintained a government security 23 clearance? 24 A. No. 25 Q. In connection with your work with Access ------------------------------------------------ Page 15 1 Graphics, did you receive any clearance? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Were you ever briefed or debriefed by any 4 federal agency with respect to security issues? 5 A. I don't recall. 6 Q. Needless to say, if you weren't maintaining a 7 clearance, no clearance was ever taken away from you 8 during that period, correct? 9 A. Not that I know of, 10 Q. Your departure from the Navy, do you recall what 11 rank you were at the time? 12 A. I left active duty I think as lieutenant. 13 Q. Your discharge was honorable? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Anything else eventful occur during your naval 16 service? 17 A. My first child was born. 18 Q. Congratulations. When were you first married? 19 A. 1966. 20 Q. When was your first child born? 21 A. 1969. Personal note; the "oh gosh's" are a nice touch, dontcha' think? Not the "real" John Ramsey that we've all seen... If this post comes up more than once, let me appologise. My server is having major troubles. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 64. "Thanks Seeker" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 10:20:42 6/21/2000 I had forgotten where I read about JR's military career. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 61. "...LOL, momo!" Posted by Dunvegan on 09:25:08 6/21/2000 Yes, indeed...or as the Valley Girl sez: Susan Bennett... Totally Clueless! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 63. "...another SBTC coincidence..." Posted by Dunvegan on 09:36:25 6/21/2000 The full article may be found at: http://groucho.sb.gov.bc.ca/news/99oct/business_up.htm SMALL BUSINESSES UP TO CHALLENGES OF NEW ECONOMY Oct. 25, 1999 SBTC / 99:155 VANCOUVER - B.C.'s small business sector has the highest growth rate in the country and is leading the way for a more innovative and diversified provincial economy, Small Business, Tourism and Culture Minister Ian Waddell and Finance Minister Paul Ramsey said today in launching Small Business Week. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 66. "Not Significant, But..." Posted by shadow on 11:23:53 6/21/2000 I would have thought JR's Top Secret investigation would have been Naval Intelligence... long time ago, however, maybe FBI did them back then. shadow [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 70. "Coincidences???" Posted by JR on 19:25:20 6/22/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 19:25:20, 6/22/2000 Boy - talk about coincidences - one of tghe companies named in PegB's post (#21 I believe) is JSA Consulting, Inc. JSA is Joann Snow Associates Consulting. Joann Snow is married to Ken Snow who works for Applied Signal Technology, Inc. which is a government contractor. Applied Signal is one of many smaller companies who performs on subcontracts for larger government contrators like - you guess it - Lockheed Martin. It is a smll worl now isn't it? As I stated once before in a post this particular business is very incestuous in that people who work for them go from one company to the next and often even in groups or teams from specific projects. Shadow SBI's are generally done by the FBI today anyway. They require going back to the age of 18 and knowing every place the person lived, went to school, partied, friends etc. Generally, the documents one fills out require a few names of friends etc., then those people are asked for names and the new people are asked for names and so on in a way to get enough information to know if you have anything in your past to be worried about being blackmailed for. Edited to say - someone actually posted a link to a map that showed SBTC labled as a training center some weeks ago - maybe someone can research the archives for that thread (?) My guess is that it was in the last 8 weeks. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 71. "Subic Bay Map with "Training Camp"" Posted by Dunvegan on 22:02:56 6/22/2000 From http://www.subicbaypi.com/sub_map1.htm Here's a map of Subic Bay in the '60s: ...and here's a close-up detailing an area called the "Jungle Survival Training Camp." ...so, in a way, it's a "Subic Bay Training Camp"...I'm trying to see how this jungle training center, garrotes, and the information in post # 48 above may or may not correlate. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 72. "I'm with you, Dun" Posted by MJenn on 16:19:41 6/23/2000 I had a little "vision," I'll call it, not anything psychic, but just some logic + experience + fantasy: a father, showing off his military experience to his son, or to a group of friends and family, etc., fashioning a garotte, of sorts, out of whatever was handy--like a paintbrush handle and some twine nearby. That harmless exhibit becomes the instrument of JonBenet's death. Wonder if the police or FBI talked to anyone from Subic Bay who trained during John's period there, or who was trained with him? Or who was a trainer there during that time? Or who would know through their own experience there if this training included this kind of killing technique? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 73. "What about Vietnam?" Posted by Ginja on 17:18:13 6/23/2000 What a shithead! Three years active duty, then 8 in the reserves, and he never sees duty in or near Vietnam at the height of American involvement? Bastard's got a horseshoe up his ass, if you ask me! According to all the press this got more than 3 years ago, there was no such place as "Subic Bay Training Center" (or Camp)...or at least there wasn't when Ramsey was stationed there. At the time, investigators put two and two together in trying to decipher what SBTC meant(he was at Subic Bay, and there's a training center there, ergo, SBTC could mean...). Like Vietnam, Ramsey saw no 'action' or training in the Philipines. Last thing Patsy had on her mind when she ended her note was where John was stationed 30 years ago. jmho, but the initials are going to have a a more personal meaning to Patsy. Another 'jmho', but I don't think SBTC is a stand-alone. Patsy's a perfectionist and everything has it's place and/or order. So I look at the order of the whole note and put it all in context. It's organized into its four parts: Salutation -- Mr. Ramsey Body -- 3 paragraphs: 1. We've got your kid! 2. We want money and we want it this way 3. berating and threatening Ramsey) Ending -- Victory! Signature -- S.B.T.C. A nasty note that ends "Victory!" That denotes some kind of win or gain. Is the writer happy for what he's achieved? or happy because "Mr. Ramsey" has been put on the spot? or happy because they know the kid is dead and they've stuck it to this guy? S.B.T.C. denotes who wrote the note. SBTC is the note writer. So I don't think it's a place a thing. I think it's a person (or a small foreign faction). ;-) Jmho. So now I've forgotten who broke it down how, but the "some bitchy whatever" is on the right track to decoding Patsy's ancronym. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 80. "Ginja . . ." Posted by Anton on 10:49:43 6/24/2000 Great job breaking down the "note". Looked at in that way, it does appear to be more organized than it otherwise does. So perhaps it was written by a normally organized, literate person who was "disturbed" at the time it was written. I agree that this is really a letter to "Mr. Ramsey", and thus the S.B.T.C. is a signature -- a name, nickname or "small foreign faction" designation. Maybe Smart Bitches Training Center. I have a feeling John would consider that to be a small foreign faction. Anton [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 74. "ginja" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 22:10:18 6/23/2000 Good thinking, I don't think SBTC relates to Subic Bay either. But, could it identify motive perhaps rather than personality? Something like: Saving Burke the Child [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 75. "...well...could be..." Posted by Dunvegan on 22:56:04 6/23/2000 Standard Balkan Terrorist Cabal [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 76. "Call me crazy..." Posted by MJenn on 02:53:27 6/24/2000 but, Dun, from one of those earlier links you posted I noticed that an artist named Winefred Potenza had an exhibit at the Subic Bay Int. Airport on Nov. 28, '99. She is famous, apparently, for a work called "The Hearts of the World," and painted a special work on the same theme for this exhibit called "The Heart of Subic Freeport." Looking up this artist on a search engine, I found out that she's from Santa Rosa, CA, but more strange than that, she is known for this work "The Hearts of the World" because she painted this project as a memorial for her son and his fiance, slain by a drunk driver approx. '90. The strange aspect comes in because she was instrumental in getting the young man who was drinking and driving convicted of murder, instead of manslaughter, the first such verdict in this kind of case--in her county, state, the world? Anyhow, the minute the verdict was read, she had an epiphany that this young man was NOT a murderer, hugged him, forgave him, and spent the next seven years working to get his verdict overturned and him released. BECAUSE SHE FORGAVE HIM FOR THE ACCIDENT, SHE IS NOW FAMOUS FOR BEING PART OF AN ORGANIZATION OF PEOPLE WHO FORGIVE THE KILLERS OF THEIR LOVED ONES. During all this she began her "HEARTS" project, which she has since continued with the United Nations. There is a picture of her presenting a painting (they're all very large canvasses) to Nelson Mandela, and it's basically just HEART SHAPES worked in with the colors of Africa. I will try to find more info and pictures, but you, Dun seem to have a knack for those Boolean, cyber, techno crap things, so by all means, have at it. I worked off of the Northern Lights search program under "Potenza" and "The Hearts of the World." I only found a few relevant hits, so I'm going back to try some others. I'd give you the http, but out of the blue I lost my connection and had to reboot, so it's back to square one. I KNOW IT'S A STRETCH. But isn't it getting a little spooky how many coincidences we're finding with Dunvegan's links? S.B.T.C., a culture known for it's garotting executions, John was there, an artist who paints hearts for her campaign of forgiveness who just happened to do an exhibit and special painting of HEARTS at Subic Bay one month before JonBenet was found murdered with a heart on her palm, Patsy paints, the business links...have I missed anything? Anybody out there got any extra Prozac? I'm thinking of shaving my head and wearing tin foil for reception. (There's a real story behind this that involves a mental patient trying to join the navy, but that's another forum.) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 77. "Luvsa Mystery" Posted by river on 04:20:43 6/24/2000 Post 65. I agree with you to a point. She could have heard that phrase and made a mistake. But in the PMPT book interview, her recollections of details in the house were so specific, she even remembered the words to a poem written on a piece of paper. It does seem odd that she made a mistake on this one point. (Of course, anything is possible.) In any case, what happened to the photograph? Though it's possible she may have confused the words, it seems rather doubtful she made up the framed photograph hanging on the wall with some kind of Subic Bay writing on it. I never heard that photo was found. riv [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 78. "river" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 08:36:45 6/24/2000 Oh, I'm not suggesting that LW didn't see a photo or that she made anything up. And I'd like to know where that photo is too. Why would Subic Bay Training Center be witten under the photograph of a navy vessel? Seems to me the name of the vessel would be imprinted there, unless maybe the ship was in port and it was a wide shot that also included the base. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 79. "Luv" Posted by river on 09:15:09 6/24/2000 She said the title was 'written' on, and was hard to see unless you looked closely because of the background. I assume she may have meant it was written on the ocean. What that means to me is that she did look closely, and that the photo was signed. I wonder who signed it? riv [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 81. "river" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 12:14:34 6/24/2000 "Written on" as opposed to imprinted? I don't have a copy of PMPT; if memory serves me, she said it was gold "lettering" didn't she? Perhaps that's where my impression of professional imprinting came from. I don't recall a reference to a signature. But at any rate JR would be a fool to deny that there ever was such as place as Subic Bay Training Center if there really were. BUT -- it's also NOT impossible that JR had a photo upon which was written or imprinted the words Subic Bay Training Center. It is possible that no such place ever existed AND that he owned a photo that bore that inscription. In fact if no such place ever existed AND he owned a photo with those words imprinted or written on it, it would be very damming since it would be so personally linked to JR. I'd like to know what happened to that pic too and about the signature. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 82. "signed photo" Posted by river on 07:32:02 6/26/2000 Here's what LW said in the interview. (PMPT) "I don't remember if I told [the police] about the large photograph John had of an aircraft carrier. On the bottom of the picture in fancy writing were the words, "Subic Bay Training Center". The script was faint because it blended in with the water, so the words were hard to read. It used to hang behind his desk in the bedroom." She says nothing about gold lettering. In fact, she says the script was faint because it blended in with the 'water'. There was no mention of a signature. My take is that John took the picture himself and labeled it. I do that with lots of photos. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 83. "Thanks River" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 08:48:20 6/26/2000 LOL - well that goes to show you how my memory works (or fails to work). I musta filed "faint, fancy writing" in my memory banks "imprinted gold lettering" file by mistake. No doubt I tried to envison the lettering when I read that book and my memory filed what I envisoned rather than LW's description. So, perhaps you can see why I suspect that perhaps LW's memory was possibly tainted by the ransom note. But then, on the other hand, perhaps her memory works far better than mine and she really did see those exact words written on that photo. If so -- I'd guess that the Rs destroyed that pic long ago. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 84. "Dunvegan" Posted by river on 15:32:06 6/26/2000 Very interesting posts about the SBTC stuff. Posts 49 and 50. The signer is Ramsay, spelled different than Ramsey, but... still kind of strange. SBTC may mean nothing, but it's intrigued me for a long time. I've always thought it meant something. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 85. "victory?" Posted by Nandee on 15:42:01 6/26/2000 Maybe the Victory was over the "blonde" down the street Patsy was trying to keep John away from... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 86. "SBTC" Posted by Edie Pratt on 15:55:57 6/26/2000 always makes me think of yogurt,lol. TCBY/SBTC? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 87. "sbtc" Posted by troy on 16:29:22 6/26/2000 "in the small storage closet where Fleet White and John Ramsey had looked just before JonBenet's body was found, the police found a plaque with the lettering SBTC on it" PMPT p84 I have never heard anything else about this plaque. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL troy ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 88. "PMPT" Posted by river on 18:30:01 6/26/2000 pp 258-259, LW tells about the photograph. The police do not reveal if they found the photo, we only hear of a plaque, and that story has been changed several times. First they said it said SBTC, then later, just Subic Bay. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 89. "SBTC" Posted by guardian on 17:08:53 6/27/2000 Southern Bells That Control, Captain, Command, Conduct, etc, etc. As far as the plaque it could have been taken out by Pam Paugh. Only one of many items not inventoried. Guardian [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 90. "S.B.T.C" Posted by Rascal on 22:28:50 6/27/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 22:28:50, 6/27/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 22:21:54, 6/27/2000 The periods after the first three lines are a key to understanding what the letters represent. The period represents the end, DEAD! Victory represents completion of the killing/sacrifice of the three females. The B. female was the most important to the perp, since she was a virgin child. The perp has a very high expectation of empowerment from the killings. S.=Stockton, California Ms. Smart 5-25-96 B.=Boulder,Colorado Ms. Ramsey 12-25-96 T.=Torrance,California Ms. Ruggiero 8-25-91 C=The Cat The note writer and killer. The cat had a child in 1992 and took some time off for motherhood. The Cat attended High School in Boulder county off and on from Sept' 91 to 1995. In the first set of three (3), two are killed in MW's Los Oso area. 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