Justice Watch Discussion Board "THE BLAME GAME" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... THE BLAME GAME, Holly, 07:29:11, 7/06/2000 Holly, frankg, 08:09:51, 7/06/2000, (#1) typical.., Dianne E., 08:24:38, 7/06/2000, (#2) They never feel any regret for..., mary99, 08:38:18, 7/06/2000, (#3) Actually, frankg, Watching you, 08:42:40, 7/06/2000, (#5) Just watched the Robinson show, Kaethe, 08:51:25, 7/06/2000, (#6) Kaethe., Holly, 09:38:46, 7/06/2000, (#15) Heaven help her, Kaethe, 11:32:57, 7/06/2000, (#31) frankg, Luvsa Mystery, 08:40:32, 7/06/2000, (#4) WY, Luv's, frankg, 09:37:46, 7/06/2000, (#14) Yes, frankg, Watching you, 09:57:36, 7/06/2000, (#19) frankg, Luvsa Mystery, 10:36:57, 7/06/2000, (#24) I do think they find fault,, Holly, 09:31:18, 7/06/2000, (#11) Ah, Holly, Greenleaf, 08:54:46, 7/06/2000, (#7) Greenleaf, Luvsa Mystery, 09:13:06, 7/06/2000, (#8) "...on "Touched By An Angel,", Edie Pratt, 09:21:35, 7/06/2000, (#10) no responsibility, fly, 09:14:17, 7/06/2000, (#9) fly., Holly, 09:33:39, 7/06/2000, (#13) It doesn't fit, pinker, 09:46:32, 7/06/2000, (#16) Excellent point, pinker AND, Holly, 09:56:24, 7/06/2000, (#18) Greenleaf, Holly, 09:32:36, 7/06/2000, (#12) and one more thing,, Edie Pratt, 09:52:57, 7/06/2000, (#17) And I'll add to that, Edie,, Holly, 09:58:45, 7/06/2000, (#20) yes, you see, Holly, Edie Pratt, 10:06:19, 7/06/2000, (#21) OK, EdieP, Holly, 10:12:14, 7/06/2000, (#22) Holly, fly, 10:46:52, 7/06/2000, (#26) Fly., Holly, 10:59:42, 7/06/2000, (#28) She knew from the get-go, Edie Pratt, 10:21:38, 7/06/2000, (#23) LOL, Kaethe, 10:49:42, 7/06/2000, (#27) OK Luvsa, Cutter, 10:43:23, 7/06/2000, (#25) Cutter, Luvsa Mystery, 11:01:20, 7/06/2000, (#29) I can understand, luvsamystery. , Holly, 11:11:55, 7/06/2000, (#30) Holly, Luvsa Mystery, 14:38:36, 7/06/2000, (#38) so, now what?, Edie Pratt, 11:35:42, 7/06/2000, (#32) dear LuvsaMystery, Greenleaf, 12:01:34, 7/06/2000, (#33) Greenleaf, Luvsa Mystery, 14:33:12, 7/06/2000, (#37) Greenleaf,, gaiabetsy, 12:35:17, 7/06/2000, (#34) Luvsa, Ribaldone, 14:01:19, 7/06/2000, (#35) Ribaldone, Luvsa Mystery, 14:42:18, 7/06/2000, (#39) Well, Ribaldon, gaiabetsy, 14:28:44, 7/06/2000, (#36) I'm kind of wishy washy myself, Luvs, Edie Pratt, 14:46:09, 7/06/2000, (#41) Edie, Luvsa Mystery, 15:07:31, 7/06/2000, (#42) Blame Game, Nandee, 14:42:20, 7/06/2000, (#40) Thanks, Luvs, Edie Pratt, 15:45:34, 7/06/2000, (#45) Edie, Luvsa Mystery, 16:27:25, 7/06/2000, (#47) They have lied..., filomena, 15:43:49, 7/06/2000, (#44) Holly, v_p, 15:37:06, 7/06/2000, (#43) v_p, Holly, 16:22:04, 7/06/2000, (#46) Edie Pratt--I was just thinking, fiddler, 16:56:29, 7/06/2000, (#49) Cutter, Ryder, 16:50:30, 7/06/2000, (#48) Ryder--I think that this is another, fiddler, 17:03:15, 7/06/2000, (#50) Ryder, Fiddler, frankg, 18:16:17, 7/06/2000, (#52) Ryder, Ribaldone, 17:14:09, 7/06/2000, (#51) Yes, AH, Holly, 21:15:46, 7/06/2000, (#56) What's normal?, v_p, 20:01:16, 7/06/2000, (#53) As a matter of fact,, Holly, 21:14:06, 7/06/2000, (#55) v_p: I agree--I think it's normal, fiddler, 21:08:42, 7/06/2000, (#54) v_p, Teague, 05:31:49, 7/07/2000, (#57) Teague., Holly, 06:18:13, 7/07/2000, (#58) Fiddler, Holly, frankg, 07:28:26, 7/07/2000, (#60) Teague, v_p, 07:14:02, 7/07/2000, (#59) I was in bookstore, Watching you, 07:33:01, 7/07/2000, (#61) Church Scene, Luvsa Mystery, 07:53:48, 7/07/2000, (#62) Luvsamystery. frankg, Holly, 09:17:12, 7/07/2000, (#63) Cutter ..what can i say? , sissy, 11:06:57, 7/07/2000, (#64) editing, tamster, 11:39:41, 7/07/2000, (#65) ................................................................... "THE BLAME GAME" Posted by Holly on 07:29:11 7/06/2000 The Ramseys accept responsibility for NOTHING. Just like most criminals. Today I watched part one of the JAMES ROBISON stop on the Salvation Tour. They must have been pissed having to share the spot with the orphans of Romania. BTW Robison rivals Patsy for annoying hand gestures. But he did manage to reveal the dark side of their characters. The complete and total avoidance of responsibility for a single thing having to with the murder, or their post crime behavior and decisions. It is that attitude, that really freezes me. "A good friend", bearing a condolence casserole, asked if he could hire lawyers. When a lawyer for each Rammer showed up, Patsy chuckled, "Wha.....who are YOU?" The Ramseys can't be blamed for that decision. Blame someone else. When cameras appeared outside the church after the memorial service, Patsy wondered how they knew JonBenet had been murdered? They won't accept responsibility for Pat Korten's PR campaign. Blame him. Another good friend told them to go on CNN, so don't blame the Ramseys for that debacle either. There were lots of "home videos" shot at pageants whines Patsy. So don't blame her for the tawdry, slo mo representations of JonBenet. Someone else provided those to the press. No one showed homespun, JB footage. Blame someone else. Robison suggested something was "not right" about Patsy's demeanor on the first CNN interview. But don't blame Patsy. Blame the meds. What? "I didn't answer my own doorbell for a year?" Blame Susan Stine. The investigation is botched? Blame BPD. People think John did it. Well that's Linda Arndt's fault. Even though LA NEVER, EVER said John Ramsey killed JonBenet. People think Patsy did it? That's because of Steve Thomas. Friends, lawyers, medications, cops, pageant parents, the media. The Ramseys sicken me with their blame game. When will these creeps accept responsibility for ANYTHING? And another note from the Robison Show- Patsy described John "wailing for days and nights, while Patsy lay in bed asking for God's guidance", when his grown daughter, Beth died in an ACCIDENT in another state. But the sight of his baby girl, beaten, bruised, garroted, and feeling her stiff as a board and smelling the stench of her decomposing coorpse, elicited a curious, "Is she dead"?, of Linda Arndt. Then JR emitted a few tearful yelps and got the hell out of Dodge. Something is very wrong with these people and their version of their daughter's death. [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "Holly" Posted by frankg on 08:09:51 7/06/2000 Perhaps the Ramsey's don't see it as a blame game. Perhaps they see nothing wrong with anything you listed here. It's only a blame game if you find fault in the action and need to pin responsibility on someone else for it. I think the only thing they may regret after all this time was the Church video, and perhaps they honestly had nothing to do with it, didn't know about it until it happened, and in hindsight wish it didn't happen. I'm not trying to make excuses for them. There is little they have done that I think I would have done although I can't know for sure. But if they put an equal if not higher priority on self-preservation than on solving the case then a lot of what they have done and said can be explained, and it does not necessarily point to their involvement in the murder. I think what it has done is turn the majority of the public against them. Most people find their behavior suspicious and distasteful. It's made it far easier to believe they are involved in the murder. Regarding John's reaction to JonBenet's death... in the crock, John's brother is quoted as saying he found John sobbing in the middle of the night following JonBenet's death. I've never heard how John reacted when he heard of Beth's death. It's quite possible that his reaction to both deaths were very similar. Minimal emotion at first as reality sets in, followed by intense grief. Then again, I could be wrong... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "typical.." Posted by Dianne E. on 08:24:38 7/06/2000 ..response of people with a few screws missing, eg. psychopaths, to only see THEMSELVES as the victims. They lack the ability to see themselves as anything else. The rest of the world is wrong and of course they are right (at least in their twisted minds) A perfect example is DOI. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL Dianne E. ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "They never feel any regret for..." Posted by mary99 on 08:38:18 7/06/2000 ...For having their friends trample all over the crime scene, even though the Ramseys and no-one else invited those friends to their house. ...John never ever said, "If I had fixed that broken window last summer, if I had then maybe the 'intruder' couldn't have entered our home." ...Patsy never admitted JonBenet was tarted up or exploited, even though Lin Wood, their own attorney, said she was "A pedophile's dream." To me the absence of even a twinge of self-recrimination for these glaring and obvious mistakes speaks volumes. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "Actually, frankg" Posted by Watching you on 08:42:40 7/06/2000 in his book, Steve Thomas talked about JR's reaction when Beth was killed. He said JR would go to the attic and wail his grief at night - that he was totally devastated. In fact, Thomas remarked upon the contrast between JR's reaction to Beth's death and JBR's death. His visable reaction to Beth's death was much different from his reaction to JBR's death. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "Just watched the Robinson show" Posted by Kaethe on 08:53:31 7/06/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 08:53:31, 7/06/2000 My ramblings on the show... I have to mention first that I like James Robinson. I am not a fan of televangelists in general, by any means, but James Robinson has always come across to me as a very genuine person, sincere in his beliefs. I see that in him, whether or not you go along with his brand of religion. I think James Robinson may actually believe the Ramsey's are in some way involved in JonBenét's death. He chooses his words carefully. He simply comforts them, asked that we all pray for them and say we should not be their judge. The words he used to counsel them on TV could have been the ones used as they sat in prison for this murder. I'm not cynical by nature. I like people. I pride myself at giving people the benefit of the doubt and not thinking the worst of them. But at the same time, I'm pretty good at sizing up situations and I'm not naive. The Ramsey have NEVER come across as genuine OR sincere OR truthful. I think it's bazaar that there are people who have listened and watched them over these last three and a half years and NOT recognized that these parents are covering up a murder! The death of Beth continued to come across today, as it does every time it comes up, as the REAL tragedy for the Ramsey family. Why is this? At the very mention of Beth's death, you get the fresh tears, the stories of wailing, depths of despair, the anger at God Almighty. Strange, you just don't get that "raw emotion" when you hear them talk of JonBenét! It's horrible to lose a young daughter in a car wreck -- absolutely. I have a son around Beth's age and if anything would ever happen to him I don't know how I would survive it. But as awful as a young woman's death in a car wreck is --- it was an accident! John, you found your tortured murdered baby girl in your basement! You were SO angry at God for the accidental death of one daughter -- why no REAL anger at the MURDERER of your tiniest child! It ain't there! I do think they loved her, but it's as if they have built an emotional wall when it comes to JonBenét. You'd think that JonBenét's murder would bring on ALL this same sorrow and much MORE. Sorrow, anguish and RAGE. JonBenét didn't just die --her death was so awful. Sometimes they talk about JonBenét's death as if she passed away in her sleep! And good grief -- it happened just yesterday compared to Beth's death! Where's the HATE for the killer of JonBenét? Why do the Ramseys do such a fine job of hiding any disdain for the killer and molester of their beautiful daughter, while they have NO PROBLEM showing their open hostility toward the BPD and press! Steve Thomas did not murder JonBenét --- but SOMEONE did. I'll never forget the comment of theirs shortly after her murder -- the comfort they found knowing JonBenét would never know cancer or the death of a child. They're nuts. I've actually thought at times that they MUST be innocent of this murder (and just creeps) because NO INTELLIGENT COUPLE would do such a poor job of "acting" innocent. While it's always interesting (for me) to watch the Ramsey and hear them talk, it's so d-mn frustrating. I want to scream --- STOP ASKING THESE PEOPLE FOR THE TEN THOUSANDTH TIME HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT BEING PERSECUTED! ASK THEM TO CLARIFY SOME FACTS IN THIS CASE! Of course that ain't gonna happen. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "Kaethe." Posted by Holly on 09:38:46 7/06/2000 I agree. Robison is very careful. And why is it always that Beth's accident seems the far greater tragedy? There must be a reason. Tears for her and none for JB. Puleeeeeze. While there may have been a deep love between Patsy and her step-daughter, Beth was not Patsy's natural child. It doesn't make sense. And every other sentence laid the blame on someone else. Every observation from Robison elicited another version of who was really responsible. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 31. "Heaven help her" Posted by Kaethe on 11:32:57 7/06/2000 Just heard a small part a repeat of today's show. This time around I heard a spot where Patsy was TRYING to move into her cancer story. She was launching into it when Robinson interrupted her... (maybe wanting to talk about JonBenet again. Drat!) Do you get the impression like I do that to her this little murder story is only a very minuet blip on the very big screen drama that is known as "PATSY!"? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "frankg" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 08:40:32 7/06/2000 You said: But if they put an equal if not higher priority on self-preservation than on solving the case then a lot of what they have done and said can be explained, and it does not necessarily point to their involvement in the murder. I think what it has done is turn the majority of the public against them. Most people find their behavior suspicious and distasteful. It's made it far easier to believe they are involved in the murder. Just because we have the right to do something doesn't make it the right thing to do. For instance, it is my right to give all my money to feed the poor and, consequently, to subject my own children to poverty. I may even be commended for feeding the poor, even if I did it at my own children's expense. Likewise it was the Rs right to remain silent and to "lawyer up." But -- that right doesn't come cheap. Right or wrong there is more than one court in the land. There is the law and the court of public opinion. It is possible to avoid the bars of one while creating the bars of the other. The Rs may never see in inside of a jail cell, but everything that is, is not all visible. The cell of their own creation is not visible, however, that which is invisible is (most often) more enduring than that which is visible. There's no early parole for good behavior in the court of public opinion. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 14. "WY, Luv's" Posted by frankg on 09:37:46 7/06/2000 WY, thanks for the info out of Thomas's book. I didn't read his book or DOI and don't plan to at this point. But what you said doesn't really change what I pointed out. That is, Thomas was not there when John first learned of Beth's death and likewise, John's brother has said John sobbed uncontrollably at night following JonBenet's murder. Thomas apparently is trying to link how John was reacting sometime after learning of Beth's death with how he reacted the day of. And does Thomas ever reference to or how does he account for what John's brother has said? Luv's, I am not endorsing what the Ramsey's have said or done. In fact, I have been very critical of them on several occasions. And what you are saying is not contrary to my comments in the least. I couldn't agree more that lawyering up gives the appearance of guilt. But the Ramsey's may not see it that way. They may see it as the correct thing to do because innocent people can get railroaded or tripped up by law enforcement with an agenda. And because they did the correct thing they are not blaming anyone when they explain how their lawyers came to be. I am not agreeing with this... I am fairly confident I would not hire a lawyer if in their position even though I have the means to do so. But I also don't look at this as a sign of guilt, it was sound legal advice if not a poor public relations move. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 19. "Yes, frankg" Posted by Watching you on 10:00:07 7/06/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 10:00:07, 7/06/2000 ST does reference his sources for JR's actions, and in the book he makes it very apparent that JR's actions were very different with Beth's death than with JBR's. You haven't read the book yet? I just got my copy back from one of my daughters over the weekend, and I've been rereading it. It is amazing the things one misses the first time through a book. For instance, on my second read I discovered something that a lot of posters had been discussing here about Patsy's cancer ordeal. Thomas states that JR and a physician friend of his "pulled strings" to get Patsy in that NIH study. Many thought that couldn't be done, but Thomas out and out says it was done. Unfortunately, I do not have my copy with me right now, but I will, (if I can remember, that is) find the quotes from Thomas's book this evening so I can tell you about them. I can't remember word for word how Thomas described JR's actions after the deaths of his two daughters, but in this one case I think it is necessary to read his words, not my second-hand memories of what he said. Half my brain was put out to pasture years ago, as you well know. Post Edit: forgot to mention that I have not one doubt that JR cried over JB's death. I have no doubt he grieved mightily over it and was truly crushed by it. It wasn't just those actions Thomas was talking about - it was about a lot more than just those actions. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 24. "frankg" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 10:36:57 7/06/2000 I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you were. I was just thinking outloud about public opinion -vs- innocent until proven guilty. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 11. "I do think they find fault," Posted by Holly on 09:31:18 7/06/2000 with the decisions, because they are being held responsible by the public. That is when they blame others. It's never a Ramsey error of judgement. It's always a matter of who "really" did it. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "Ah, Holly" Posted by Greenleaf on 08:54:46 7/06/2000 It's so good to see you back! You were missed. You summed it all up beautifully: "Something is very wrong with these people and their version of their daughter's death." You can say that again: "Something is very wrong with these people and their version of their daughter's death." This is (imho) what "is wrong:" They are murderers. A beautiful little girl, who was in their care, was in their home, and was their child, went to bed on Christmas night, 1996, and was never to be seen alive again. No intruder; no break-in; no worry. They did it; they did it; they did it; they did it. They can "praise the lord" from now 'til doomsday, publicly, privately, on national t.v., sitting on the toilet, or in church, it doesn't matter. They were responsible for JonBenet's current address: lying six feet under, in a cemetary in Georgia. They can have make-overs, face-lifts, tummy tucks, or boob jobs; it doesn't matter. Their souls are ugly; their hands are dirty; their words are silly. We must NEVER FORGET that one of our beautiful little citizens is no longer with us because of THEM! Yes, indeed, JonBenet was a fellow citizen of these great United States Of America; land of the free and home of the brave. THEY took away ALL OF HER FREEDOMS, including HER RIGHT TO LIFE! Can we imagine anything more horrendous than that? HER RIGHT TO LIFE was snuffed out. Puff! Out, out, bright light! "No one will ever know," the creeps thought. "It'll be alright. Praise the Lord!" DAMN THEM! Damn all evil men and women everywhere who abuse and murder our children. If THEY had murdered their dog, the association for the prevention of cruelity to animals would have been all over them and all over Boulder. Now, LISTEN to them. They are beyond the pale; babbling away, oblivious to what they have done. I see them, hiding under the Bible; proclaiming their innocence, before Christians, on national television. Yes, I am angry. EVERYTIME I see them, or think of them, I seethe. I wish, at every interview, someone would show them a picture of JonBenet's body, from the autospy report. But, they have distanced themselves from that "event." It was such an unfortunate "incident." Dear me, why don't we, at JusticeWatch "get a life?" WE WILL NEVER FORGET JONBENET! YOU WILL NOT GET AWAY WITH MURDER! Our little voices here will keep reminding people, for as long as we live, of what you two did on Christmas night, 1999. You can count on that. We haven't forgotten you, JonBenet. We send you hugs and kisses and much love. Greenleaf [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 8. "Greenleaf" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 09:13:06 7/06/2000 This is no attack on your convictions. But, please, may I ask you how you are so sure? Don't you have any doubts at all that the Rs are responsible for JB death? Maybe I'm missing something, but, I'm not as certain. I am frustrated by the Rs sucess at holding the law a bay and I lean toward the belief that they are somehow involved, but I am far from certain. I wonder how it is that you are? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. ""...on "Touched By An Angel,"" Posted by Edie Pratt on 09:21:35 7/06/2000 "uh, I mean BEFORE we had our tv shut off."Patsy Ramsey Excellent post Holly! I can think of only one word that sums this latest production up: OBSCENE. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "no responsibility" Posted by fly on 09:14:17 7/06/2000 frankg - I agree with you. There are some things that the Ramseys have done (or not done) that I think/hope I'd do very differently in a similar situation, and for which they deserve criticism. Quite a bit of what Holly mentions should not be held against them, IMO. For that matter, not taking responsibility for things that turn out badly is one of the most common tendencies most people have. You don't have to be a psychopath or any sort of criminal to react the way the Ramseys have. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. "fly." Posted by Holly on 09:33:39 7/06/2000 I'll bite. What should not be held against them? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "It doesn't fit" Posted by pinker on 09:46:32 7/06/2000 They want to blame this crime on an intruder/pediophile and take no responsibility for parading her in those mature costumes. Patsy says she has no regrets and wouldn't trade the pageant memories for anything. (she wouldn't even trade them to get JBR back???) Do they want us to believe that a pediophile stalked and became enthralled with her at the supermarket when the obvious source would have been the pageants? Uncovering the truth in a crime is a big puzzle with pieces that fit together. Sucessfully staging a crime would also require the pieces to fit cohesively. These pieces handed to us by the Ramsey's can't be joined together and must be discarded as trash. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "Excellent point, pinker AND" Posted by Holly on 09:56:24 7/06/2000 don't forget it was JONBENET'S fault that the intruder entered the home in the first place. In the POS, they tell how JB set off the alarm one day and the sound was so, uh, alarming, they never turned it back on. They never ever accept responsibility. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 12. "Greenleaf" Posted by Holly on 09:32:36 7/06/2000 Wonderfully stated with passion, as always. :-) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 17. "and one more thing," Posted by Edie Pratt on 09:52:57 7/06/2000 This business about the glitzy videos and pictures that went out the day after she died. Patsy NEVER SAYS, "those weren't OUR video and pictures", she only says "They got out". My question is this; WHO GAVE THOSE PICTURES AND VIDEOS TO THE MEDIA? Patsy says the media didn't have access to their family photos, but she doesn't say who had access to the stuff we saw. How did those "get out"? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 20. "And I'll add to that, Edie," Posted by Holly on 09:58:45 7/06/2000 that many of the photos seen by cops WERE glitzy pageant pics. Wasn't there an entire album of them? And in Charlevoix, a nude/boa shot? You hae asked a VERY interesting question. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 21. "yes, you see, Holly" Posted by Edie Pratt on 10:11:54 7/06/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 10:11:54, 7/06/2000 Patsy makes such a point to say at any given opportunity, "when we came out of the Peachtree church, I said, Who ARE these people, how did they know JonBenet died?" I think it's pretty clear how we knew JB died. PR deliberately put the glam shots out there, because, IMO, THAT CHILD was going to be famous, even if it KILLED HER! PS Who did she blame for THAT? Nobody in particular, so let's do the math,lol. PSS If given the proper investigation, this case would have concluded had those two been seperated. It's clear after listening to them talk about LArndt's claim that JRDI, and watching JR jump in on cue to say immediately, "But then the focus turned to Patsy", that they play the "Blame Game" with eachother, too. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 22. "OK, EdieP" Posted by Holly on 10:12:14 7/06/2000 Patsy already admitted her friends told her the press was involved/interested. She knew there was a public interest even in her medicated state. So why the charade? Who are the REAL manipulators? And why? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 26. "Holly" Posted by fly on 10:46:52 7/06/2000 Holly - Here's a quick reply, before I leave... (1) The Rams shouldn't be blamed for hiring lawyers. They should have overridden their advice at times, but letting lawyers handle things (up to a point) is appropriate given their situation - even if they are innocent. (2) The versions I've heard don't suggest the Ramseys had much, if anything, to do with the church media event. That was Korten's doing. I seriously doubt that the Ramseys had a significant role in that. If they were not consulted, why blame them? (3) If the Ramseys didn't release the photos and videos, how are they to blame for them hitting the press? Blame them for having JBR in pageants, but not for the videos being released or how they might have been altered. (4) Appearing on CNN was lousy given they subsequently wouldn't talk to the cops, but why NOT blame PR's appearance/behavior on the medication? It's pretty obvious she was drugged, and other accounts indicate she was on drugs during that period. (5) Why blame PR for letting somebody else guard the door for a year? Isn't that reasonable given the press frenzy? Why does this make PR a bad person? Sure, she could have answered the door herself, but what is the problem with not doing so? Perhaps I don't understand the context of your criticism about this. (5)Although the Ramseys should bear some of the blame for the botched investigation, the BPD and DAs office do share that blame. The Ramseys could have helped the police a lot more than they did, but they did a lot more than they had to by law. As with other things, the Ramseys are not blameless, but there is a lot of fault to divvy up among a lot of people. The Ramseys do try and avoid responsibility for some things, some of which are important things. That makes them very human, but does not really address whether they are criminals. I'm outta here, folks. See you in a couple of weeks. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 28. "Fly." Posted by Holly on 10:59:42 7/06/2000 Welcome to the BLAME GAME. Where's my swatter? :-) You are taking the obvious Rammer position. You are comfortable with it, I suppose, and they are comfortable with it. But they don't fool many people. JR was in control at the getgo. He was making phone calls, making arrangements and knew damn full and well what the newly hired lawyers and Pat Korten were up to. He knew enough to work with Fleet White to get the only other witness out of the house. He wanted to get the entire family out of Boulder before the 6 o'clock news if he could. He didn't defer to lawyers - he worked with them every inch of the way. And lawyers abide by lawyer/client priveledge, don't they? So they aren't confirming or denying or discussing anything Ramsey does not approve. Nothing the Ramseys have done is spontaneous. It's all structured and co-ordinated. And if it irks the public -- blame someone else. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 23. "She knew from the get-go" Posted by Edie Pratt on 10:21:38 7/06/2000 let's face it. Any woman that thinks to sew a veil on a hat to complete an outfit for a funeral of a 6 year old, doesn't exactly fit the category of a devastated, grieving mother. Everything she's done, on meds or not, has been designed. Those meds, I'm quite certain, were NOT foreign to Patsy's system. She functioned quite well, keeping her eye on the little details. That takes some practice, and immunity. If that was the first time she'd ever been "out of it", there is NO WAY she'd have been able to go to CNN THE DAY AFTER THE FUNERAL. Gees, why didn't those meddling friends of theirs tell them to go ahead and JUMP? That would have been the best advice of all. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 27. "LOL" Posted by Kaethe on 10:49:42 7/06/2000 EP says: "Any woman that thinks to sew a veil on a hat to complete an outfit for a funeral of a 6 year old, doesn't exactly fit the category of a devastated, grieving mother." Ha! We've all been following this case so long and seen so much madness, we're shell shocked. Then some old image comes bouncing back --LIKE PATSY'S FUNERAL BONNET -- and I laugh and laugh. Could it all BE any stranger? Hey, didn't Patsy come out of her medicinal haze long enough to remember to wear her Miss America pin on CNN? That was where she wore it, right? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 25. "OK Luvsa" Posted by Cutter on 10:43:23 7/06/2000 Hope you don't mind if I throw my opinion at you regarding your question to Greenie about how someone can be so sure they are guilty. There are 3 things that stand out in my mind and make me sure the Ramseys are involved in this crime. 1) The facts of the case point to them being the perps. There is not a single piece of evidence that proves anyone else was in the house that night besides John, Pats, and Burke. Everything the Ramseys and their supporters point to as being evidence is really just twisted truth. The DNA evidence of an intruder is actually contaminated DNA garbage, it will never match anyone and could have come from anywhere. The supposed intruder's palm print on the door frame, (gee...we have an intruder who doesn't wear gloves, leaves a palm print, but manages not to leave any finger prints...yeah right.) The shoe print, not an obscure Bruno Magli mind you, but a brand that just happens to be worn by a majority of police officers. (duh) And lets not forget about the old styrofoam packaging peanut that turns out never really existed. Only twisted facts can back up the Ramsey claims... 2) The simple scenario of the case as set up by the Ramseys is totally ludicrous. When criminals break into a house they have one agenda, get in, get what they want, and then get the hell out as fast as possible. The very idea of an intruder breaking in, feeding a kid some pineapple, writing a 3 page note after practicing his penmanship, cleaning the childs body, constructing a garrote, and taking his sweet time to molest and murder the child, all while the parents were happily snoring away is so unbelievable that only the most naive people in the world could buy off on the concept. People that believe the Ramseys version of events are more stupid than the intruder would have to be to even attempt such a crime. 3) The Ramseys have done nothing but act guilty from day one. There comes a point where anyone's grief turns to anger against the person responsible. Any innocent parent would have long ago been jumping up and down on ever desk in the Boulder Police Department demanding they stop looking in the wrong direction and find the real killer. Instead, the Ramseys have done everything they possible could to hinder the investigation and protect themselves. Furthermore, the Ramseys are too stupid with guilt to realize when they give away the truth by their actions. They continue to embrace every little item that might possibly shine the light of guilt in another direction no matter how ridiculous it is. From stunguns to sketchmen, not once have they pronounced anything "far fetched" like any reasonable human being would. If it came to light that a stop sign was missing from an intersection near their house in Boulder, the Ramseys would claim it was the work of the intruder who wanted to make a quick get away... Bottom line: Guilty people ACT GUILTY! And that's only the short version! :) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 29. "Cutter" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 11:01:20 7/06/2000 Thank you for that colorful and articulate reply to my enquiry. BTW, I don't mind that you answered at all. LOL -- you made me laugh. I agree with you 100%! I really do. But yet, there's some part of me that says that we could all be wrong -- granted its a tiny little voice -- but it's a real nag. It keeps me on this darn ol' rickety fence. I suppose if I were on a jury I'd be a DA's worse nightmare, but I can't deny my lack of firm convictions. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 30. "I can understand, luvsamystery. " Posted by Holly on 11:11:55 7/06/2000 And I think it's because we don't know the BIG picture. For me, but not for some, Mystery Woman, is a part of that bigger story. I just have felt since February, that we are inching closer to the truth and that nothing is what it seems. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 38. "Holly" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 14:38:36 7/06/2000 Thanks. I don't know if it has anything to do with MW or not -- but I (also) have the same feeling that we haven't seen all the pieces of the puzzle yet. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 32. "so, now what?" Posted by Edie Pratt on 11:35:42 7/06/2000 now that PT Barnwood is back from his expedition, what's next? Was the scheduling of this Christian tv appearance a coincidence, or was it orchestrated just in time for LW to get back and carry on w/damage control? Who they going to blame, should this latest effort fall flat? Who ordered them to go on Robison's show? Good friends? Atty.s? They're running out of blamees, so now it must be that little old lady in the ice cream parlour's fault, huh? Or maybe ALL those people in airports that come up and hug them,lol. What a piece of work they are. Too bad they're in the baby killing game, they could have had their own tv show. "What's My Lie". [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 33. "dear LuvsaMystery" Posted by Greenleaf on 12:01:34 7/06/2000 Luvsa Mystery, you asked, "..may I ask you how you are so sure?Don't you have any doubts at all that the Rs are responsible for JB death?" It may seem strange, and perhaps judgmental (to the extreme) that I, poster Greenleaf, sitting here at my computer, on the Gulf Coast of the good old USA, could come to such a conclusion. In my mind, there is no other conclusion to come to, other than that the parents were responsible for JB's murder. All sleuthing roads lead to the rams. Every time the rams open their mouths, they are telling us of their guilt. Their demeanor (imho) is akin to wearing a big neon sign, flashing, "we did it." We are well past the fence sitting stage. We are well past the reasonable doubt stage. We are, imho, in the final scene of the third act. The curtain is poised for closure, but Hunter won't let go of the rope. The audience is getting restless; some few are still looking for an Edgar Allen Poe ending; a twist in the plot, which exonerates the parents. That is not going to happen. We have our heroine, our villains and our plot. All we need is an ending. I believe that my conclusions are not, nillywilly, based on simple conjecture, but rather, on thoughtful reflection. It is far easier on the nervous system to lean towards the rams' innocence. To think in terms of their guilt is to dive into a sea of horror. The average person, imho, does not want to go there, and I believe that the rams know this. That is their trump card; people naturally want to believe in their innocence. I am a kind and thoughtful person, and am usually cheerful and upbeat. I am old enough to be Patsy's mother. On some days, I even have sympathy for her; However, when all the flying arrows are headed in a certain direction, it is quite reasonable to assume ultimate goals. When we see certain hands on the quiver, as the arrows leave the bow, we can make reasonable conclusions as to who the archer is. An arrow pierced the heart of a little angel on Christmas night, 1999. She fell; all limp and blue. Although the quiver, arrows and bow have long since been destroyed, the archers continue to prance around on the field of "victory." The battle, of course, was no contest, because it was THEM against a tiny, frail little girl. Her heart now beats to ethereal tunes, and we, the people of this earth, are deprived forever of her sweet presence. Flame me; paint me unreasonable, it matters not. The child in question is dead and I blame the parents. Greenleaf [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 37. "Greenleaf" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 14:33:12 7/06/2000 Flame you? No way my dear -- lol -- if I could do that I could certainly feel comfortable believing that the Rs are guilty. Are you are writer by profession? If not, you should be because, you sure said that good (okay well.) As you may suspect, I am wishy-washy by nature, (except when it comes to my convictions about God) and I tend to be pretty gullible. I always tend to think the best of people. But -- hey -- I used to be worse. Once upon a time I didn't believe there was such a thing as an EVIL person until I came to know one. And I readily agree that I may be too willing to entertain doubts about the Rs. The Bible says to be wise as serpents and as gentle as lambs . . . so, we're not to be fooled by wolves in sheep's clothing . . . But -- I guess it's that I feel we haven't seen the whole picture yet. Thanks for anwering kindly and not mistaking my post as an attack. :) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 34. "Greenleaf," Posted by gaiabetsy on 12:35:17 7/06/2000 are you a gardener? Anyway, I think so many of us get an intuitive response, based upon facts and staging by those Rams, to just get the psychic pop that says "yes" they did it. No doubt at all. I feel that way. On the other hand, I wonder on what side I would have been at the Salem Witch trials? Was I a witch with wild and intuitive responses, or was I one of those folks (the majority by the way) who were absolutely sure these witches were produced by the devil? I'd have to say I'd have been a witch, I hope. I'd really not like to think I was part of the "herd" of followers who never gave it a thought the witches were innocent. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 35. "Luvsa" Posted by Ribaldone on 14:16:38 7/06/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 14:16:38, 7/06/2000 Like Greenie and Cutter, I am also absolutely certain that the Ramseys are involved in JonBenet's death. Why am I so certain? Because Ramseys tell me so through their words and their actions everytime they open their mouths. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 39. "Ribaldone" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 14:42:18 7/06/2000 I envy you your certainty. I've only been absolutely certain about a few things in all my born days. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 36. "Well, Ribaldon" Posted by gaiabetsy on 14:28:44 7/06/2000 you awful thing. I am having a hard time liking myself because I hate these people. Ain't that just about awful, yet I am as sure of their guilt as I am the sun coming up. What if I'm so damned wrong and just fundamentally crazy that I just want to blame anyone handy for this crime? Yet, these two just don't see, handy. Help me with this delimma - OK? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 41. "I'm kind of wishy washy myself, Luvs" Posted by Edie Pratt on 14:46:09 7/06/2000 when the verdict in the OJ trial was read, I sobbed. I sobbed for two reasons. Half of me did not want OJ to go to prison, or to have commited the crime at all. Then, when they read the verdict, the other half of me cried, because he was found NOT GUILTY, and wasn't going to prison. Whether the bible says not to judge or not, how can we help it? When you look at JB's little face, how can you walk away and say it's for a court to decide? How can anybody accept what's done is done? I cannot, I want to know what happened so that I might better understand, and stop judging them. An accident is forgivable, IMHO, and I'm sure it is too, to the Ramseys. Clearly they feel that they should be judged, or they wouldn't appear on tv pleading innocence. If it were an accident, seems to me they'd have said so, BECAUSE of their belief of God. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 42. "Edie" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 15:24:46 7/06/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 15:24:46, 7/06/2000 Aw, a woman after my own heart. I've been thinking about this and now I know why I hesitate to believe with certitude that the Rs are a couple of lying murderers. I AM certain of a few things. And one of those things is that I will be my own judge (ultimately) and not REALLY the judge of others at all. The laws I think I'm writing now, for others, will be the very laws that either condemn or exhonerate ME. If I condemn the Rs for being liars, I condemn myself, for surely I've lied too. And while I have never killed anyone, the spirit of murder applies to hating someone as well, and I must confess I've done that too. It breaks my heart to know that hell will be well populated. I wish that it weren't so. I cannot wish anyone to hell and I pray that I will receive mercy -- so I try to extend mercy. I believe that we all reap what we sow. Mercy for the merciful -- etc. edited for spelling mistakes [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 40. "Blame Game" Posted by Nandee on 14:42:20 7/06/2000 The operative word here is GAME and boy do they know how to play it. If you watched the LKL show and the Robison show back to back, you would think they both suffered from multiple personalities!! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 45. "Thanks, Luvs" Posted by Edie Pratt on 15:45:34 7/06/2000 that was beautiful:-) I'm not sure if "judge" is the right word here, tho. Isn't it more like "assessment"? If you're given info and data to examine (ie.CNN appearance)via your television, then are you able to keep a blank slate and reserve assessment? No, not even the fence sitters can say they walked away with NO assessment. They came here, didn't they? Well, that means SOMETHING crossed their minds, enough to ask more questions, anyway. Hence, an assessment was made. Does that make sense? I don't know that I want any punishment doled out, or that they haven't suffered enough. But, this I can tell you, I think the truth will set them free, and it's up to them to stop judging THEMSELVES. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 47. "Edie" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 16:27:25 7/06/2000 You make perfect sense. I didn't pay any mind to this case until I heard that the Rs were coming out with DOI. They were, IMHO, appealing to the court of public opinion. Drat! I sit on that bench. So, I made my way here, hoping to be convinced they were wrongly accused. Sadly, I was not convinced that they are, wrongly accused that is. And when they kept appearing on the various news programs I began to resent them for making me suspect them even further. It should not be up to the court of public opinion. Their guilt should have been decided in a court of law. And so I resented them even more for their part in frustrating justice. I feel there is something dreadfully wrong with our system of justice when the rich can avoid justice. Not being very smart, I don't know what should be done, but I am certain something needs to change. I don't want to judge. I want the court to judge as it should. The authorities are ordained by God to judge, I'm not. HENCE, I must pass. I suppose the best I can do is to cry out for justice for JB and pray that God grant it here and now and not just in the hereafter. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 44. "They have lied..." Posted by filomena on 15:43:49 7/06/2000 theirselves into oblivion. They're too far gone. They couldn't tell the truth now even if they wanted to. You know its hardly the position for a former southern bell beauty queen and successful CEO to be. You'de better believe they're gonna play the "blame game". [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 43. "Holly" Posted by v_p on 15:37:06 7/06/2000 They must have been pissed having to share the spot with the orphans of Romania. LMAO - I was thinking the same thing. She didn't even get her cancer statement in. They each said, a total of three times, that the court of public opinion "pales in comparison" to the death of JonBenet. In my eyes, JonBenet's death pales in comparison to their crusade to pull the wool over our collective eyes. Speaking of placing blame, do you think they blame JonBenet for getting them into this mess in the first place? I can see PR on the stand - "If she hadn't wet the bed I wouldn't have hit her." Or JR, "She was always sitting in my lap, hugging me, looking older than her age. That's Patsy's fault for dressing her so provocatively." Luvsa, I too feel certain these two people had something to do with their daughter's death. I have no proof, just more evidence that they did than that they didn't. And the "evidence" they have gathered over the past three years with a team of investigators produced a pretty pathetic presentation - sketchman. Patsy &/or John are good for this...no doubt in my mind. V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 46. "v_p" Posted by Holly on 16:22:04 7/06/2000 It took Patsy a few minutes, but she did find the tiniest of openings and tried to get something going about her "cancer thing". Fortunately, Robison, who is more skillful than I expected, deflected the invitation to that pity party. I was hopeful. I thought she might try to blame God again -- like for Beth's death. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 49. "Edie Pratt--I was just thinking" Posted by fiddler on 16:56:29 7/06/2000 the same thing you said--"those meds were not foreign to her system". On the original CNN interview, it was obvious Patsy was drugged, but she was also dressed, made-up, coiffed, and functioning. Functioning to the point where she could interject "It seemed like a kidnapping to me!" at the appropriate point in the conversation. And her finale--the pitiful "there's someone out there....." delivered in a falling whisper, was staged to the max, in my opinion. I remember wondering at that point if she'd been on drugs for awhile (a loooong while?) The word that occurred to me was "Maintain". And it sure seemed like she'd had a lot of practice in doing that, at that point..... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 48. "Cutter" Posted by Ryder on 16:56:17 7/06/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 16:56:17, 7/06/2000 You write: "There is not a single piece of evidence that proves anyone else was in the house that night besides John, Pats, and Burke." Although I am not a legal expert, I have to wonder how those who are react to this sentence of yours which, in MY mind, seems to me to be a very strong prosecutorial point. I keep hearing that the evidence is not there etc. etc. However, I notice that when we discuss "intruder theories", even those of us who DON'T believe in them, feel the necessity to ponder on whether or not an intruder COULD HAVE entered the house, COULD HAVE gotten in through the window, etc. Of course this belongs in intelligent debate (i.e. to consider all the possibilities). However, in a circumstancial case, in order to create that "reasonable doubt" wouldn't one have to show evidence that this is indeed what DID happen rather than what COULD have happened? I know that the accused are not required to prove their innocence but it seems to me that, short of any proof showing that someone DID come into my house and did a dastardly deed while I + 2 other family members WERE in the house, it must be assumed by reasonable people and beyond a reasonable doubt, that no one came into my house and that the people at the crime scene must be held accountable. AND if the above somehow finds a snag in the fact that no one can yet say WHO of the three should be charged, since again, reasonable people can be expected to assume that a 10 year old child did not compose that letter but the parent(s) who did should be held accountable for the murder/cover-up, I don't see why the law would not charge the 2 adults in the home. I mean, how would this process differ from a scenario of a gang rape/homicide, where X number of males, known to have been at the crime scene, would be charged with the crime, without us having to know EXACTLY which male did what to the victim? In such a scenario where both the number and identity of the males present would be KNOWN, is it reasonable to expect a reasonable jury to buy the story that the number of men at the crime scene COULD have been X + 1 unidentified intruder? Can someone explain this to me from a legal defense point of view and how the above scenario differs from the JBR case and HOW the above scenario could be expected to play out in a court of law? Edited to add: I guess that what I am trying to understand here (in my round-about way) is whether BEING PRESENT AT THE CRIME SCENE is not powerful evidence in of itself. I think that it is. By contrast, it seems to me that the argument that "someone else COULD have been there" is NOT a strong one with the power to create reasonable doubt. I am not wondering about "common sense" here, so much as I am wanting to have spelled out for me the legal twists and turns this would take from the defense perspective. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 50. "Ryder--I think that this is another" Posted by fiddler on 17:03:15 7/06/2000 example of "rich people's justice". The fact is, the Ramsey's Boulder house WAS large enough to make it possible that someone could have gotten in, and avoided detection, and taken and killed JBR, and gotten out again, without the parents hearing anything. And the scene was contaminated enough that the LACK of evidence pointing to a specific intruder was made pretty much moot. Mr. and Mrs. Joe Blow in the mobile home park, living in a 600-square-foot trailer, don't have the luxury of claiming deafness, (or "dumbness"?). And if the cops showed up to a teeming trailer, you can bet they would have ordered all those people out, pronto--unlike the Ramseys' house, where the police were overawed by the Ram's wealth and position and let them basically run riot over the crime scene. The Ramseys never even had to approach the "bribery" level to get kid-glove treatment from the police. In America, you get as much "justice" as you can buy. Disgusting, but true, in more ways than one. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 52. "Ryder, Fiddler" Posted by frankg on 18:16:17 7/06/2000 Ryder, I don't believe you could ever win a conviction simply because the defense can't prove there was an intruder. The burden of proof is on the prosecution and you are still innocent until proven guilty. Of course, I am not a lawyer nor educated in legal matters. My experience is limited to the Discovery Channel's various crime programs. But it often amazes me the degree to which the prosecution needs to prove a case. There is no evidence they actually committed the crime that I am aware of. There is no obvious motive. Historically speaking, they don't exactly fit the description of murderous parents. None of this exonerates them, but the burden of proof is still on the prosecution and IMO, these peripheral issues only increases that burden. Fiddler, there is no doubt that "rich people's justice" is at play here. But regardless, I am glad that you can't be convicted simply for being there. I'd prefer something in between. The Ramsey's should have been treated as Joe Poor Guy, but the prosecution should still have to prove the case. We are all in trouble if just being in the vicinity can get you convicted. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 51. "Ryder" Posted by Ribaldone on 17:19:11 7/06/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 17:19:11, 7/06/2000 I have heard many people say (and I agree) that in almost any other city Patsy Ramsey (at least) would have been arrested. The BDP wanted to arrest them. The FBI looked at the evidence and told them to "go for it." Hunter said no. Only when Gov. Romer forced him to did Hunter agree to convene a grand jury and then he likely "put the fix in" with them by not allowing them to vote (IMO). Alex Hunter is the sole reason there has been no arrest in this case. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 56. "Yes, AH" Posted by Holly on 21:15:46 7/06/2000 is the lone roadblock. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 53. "What's normal?" Posted by v_p on 20:01:16 7/06/2000 Normal is to somehow feel responsible, (invite or accept blame) for someone's accidental or tragic death when it's someone very close to you like a child or spouse. "If there was just something I could have done differently..." If I had fixed that damned window If I had turned the alarm on If I had not paraded her around in those outfits If I had checked on her just one more time before bed ~*~*~*~*~*~ Has anyone heard these two utter any of these things? A co-worker's husband recently died, the first thing she said was, "If I had just checked on him sooner..." P & JR want no part of the "blame game." V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 55. "As a matter of fact," Posted by Holly on 21:14:06 7/06/2000 even when those topics are touched on, like the broken window, they never accept any responsibility. Freaks. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 54. "v_p: I agree--I think it's normal" Posted by fiddler on 21:08:42 7/06/2000 to try to achieve some degree of control, when a horrible thing happens out of the blue. The way I've always experienced people to do this, is just what you said...the "if onlies". Of course, if you already know what happened, this particular reaction vanishes. frankg--actually, I'm glad people are not arrested simply for being in the vicinity, too. What angers me in this case is the way both the police and the district attorney disposed with standard operating procedure, apparently because of the Ramseys' wealth and social position. That house should have been cleared, and JR and PR taken down to the police station, within fifteen minutes of the cops' arrival, IMO. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 57. "v_p" Posted by Teague on 05:31:49 7/07/2000 You asked: "Normal is to somehow feel responsible, (invite or accept blame) for someone's accidental or tragic death when it's someone very close to you like a child or spouse. "If there was just something I could have done differently..." If I had fixed that damned window If I had turned the alarm on If I had not paraded her around in those outfits If I had checked on her just one more time before bed Has anyone heard these two utter any of these things?" ********************* To be fair, Patsy was quoted (I forget by whom) as saying something like "Why didn't I hear my baby?" [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 58. "Teague." Posted by Holly on 06:18:13 7/07/2000 Yes. I've read in ST's book and other places that Patsy wondered why she didn't hear her baby? Pretty stoopid, since supposedly, JB's mouth was duct taped. Unless, of course, Patsy already knew the duct tape was just a prop. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 60. "Fiddler, Holly" Posted by frankg on 07:28:26 7/07/2000 Fiddler, I couldn't agree more. Had this happened within the jurisdiction of an experienced police department things would be so different. Were the Ramsey's poor things would be so different. And as much as I am not a Hunter fan, he can not be blamed for how the first 12 hours of the case was handled. That blame goes to the BPD. The entire system has let JonBenet down. Holly, I'm surprised you missed such a huge opening!... Patsy said "Why didn't I hear my baby"?... well how about because she was 100 feet and a floor away from your bedroom, Patsy! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 59. "Teague" Posted by v_p on 07:14:02 7/07/2000 Fine, I'll give her credit for yet another idiotic and telling statement. She should have said, "Why didn't I hear something? Someone? A noise in JonBenet's room, the basement?" I'll tell you why, IMO, because there was no one else to hear but her baby, and she knows it. I watched their little play again this morning on Jim Robison. Same song and dance - spark plug, Stage IV cancer, nest egg gone, gurgle gurgle, blah blah. Not one word about finding the killer of their daughter. Not one word about the reward money or the wrong number in the back of the f*** book Jim Robison was holding up, no profile of the murderer. Pats wants to hug the starving children in Romania though, shall I give her credit for that? I'll give her credit when she walks into the BPD and confesses. V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 61. "I was in bookstore" Posted by Watching you on 07:33:01 7/07/2000 yesterday. Dearth of Innocence was on the close-out counter, marked down to about $5. I didn't buy it, but I picked it up and looked at it. Splat. Then I turned all of the books over so JB's picture showed instead of the plastic Rams. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 62. "Church Scene" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 07:53:48 7/07/2000 On the Robinson show yesterday PR said that at the church when all the press was gathered she was puzzled and couldn't understand why they were there, she said she asked herself, "how do they know JB is dead?" How is this possible? Didn't the public relations team set up the whole scene? How could she not have known the press would be there? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 63. "Luvsamystery. frankg" Posted by Holly on 09:17:12 7/07/2000 She knew. frankg. Hmph. I miss NOTHING. I'll deal with you on the 15th. Hah! :-) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 64. "Cutter ..what can i say? " Posted by sissy on 11:06:57 7/07/2000 Right on guilty is the word , the BPD AND THAT da should get off their asse's ands indict. You know there are some strange and wierd chit here and there should be a stopping off point somewhere.... If i had to put it together i would say john and patsy are the birds .The only killers of this child. They careless about what people think . The thing for the creeps to do is keep their ass out of prison. They should be found guilty. Strapped to a gurney and injected with some nuclear gas just to make sure they might feelb a little pain. THey are the creeps of thois earth and don't deserve to walk around on it. Please we need to make sure that this case goes to trial. THAT hunter should be indicted , no really the state should be indicted the gov. for this case to be put off this long.are they waitng for patsy and john to live out the rest of their 40's 50's 50's and say well they are guilty lets put them in jail for the last 15 minutes of their lives. this gov romer isa another creep. but you would think owens would do something besides what the ramseys do. you know he could turn this arouhnd if he wanted too . but like you say you have to be blind dead plucked up by the roots not to see and know these creeps killed that kid. i don't what any one says , they killed that baby . thats what they did. they set up the crime scwne ,they wrote the note. JOHN was molesting the kid that is why he helped patsy finish up jonbenet, he is a dirty rotten lowlife of a father, no man to this creep .whatsoever.Patsy knew just the person to get her oiff the hook that was john . if he wasn't guilty of this he would have turned that slime bitch in already , beleive me he does know which side the bread is buttered. They both make me sick. DID IT EVER OCCUR TO JOHN THAT PATSY HJAD HER HAND TO THIS? NO. WHY ? cause they are playing SCRATCH BACK. they rather not see you or even know we know, but we know they know we do. THE SHAME IS IN BOULDER. HUNTER IS A creep. he is hiding his crooked chit also from that office. he knows he may well get washed even after the election is over, its never to late to bring out the dirt.da office worse than the miami relatives. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 65. "editing" Posted by tamster on 11:39:41 7/07/2000 I am so disappointed that Robison edited from the broadcast where forgiveness and how it applies to people like Geraldo were discussed. IMO, that was by far the most interesting part of the interview. Besides, Patsy and John would still have their reputation intact if it wasn't for Geraldo. It is his fault that they have lost their good name, their home and are now forced to vacation in a home with only one bathroom. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] ARCHIVE REMOVE