Justice Watch Discussion Board "THE CASE AGAINST THE RAMSEYS IS GONE 2" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... THE CASE AGAINST THE RAMSEYS IS GONE 2, ericasf, 06:08:21, 7/18/2000 The MW Story, Real Stormy, 07:16:19, 7/18/2000, (#1) Stormy, ericasf, 07:18:53, 7/18/2000, (#2) erica, canadiana, 08:09:10, 7/18/2000, (#6) Orsen, mame, 07:22:56, 7/18/2000, (#3) Maybe it's time..., shadow, 07:52:48, 7/18/2000, (#4) I agree, freebird, 08:14:09, 7/18/2000, (#7) a question, ericasf, 08:16:34, 7/18/2000, (#9) Well, freebird, 08:28:59, 7/18/2000, (#12) I started this thread, Morgan, 08:05:49, 7/18/2000, (#5) morgan, one more question, ericasf, 08:14:23, 7/18/2000, (#8) Erica, canadiana, 08:27:38, 7/18/2000, (#11) Let me try to straighten this out --, Holly, 11:42:19, 7/18/2000, (#17) Info checked, Seeker, 08:26:02, 7/18/2000, (#10) Seeker, mame, 08:31:23, 7/18/2000, (#13) mame, Seeker, 11:00:51, 7/18/2000, (#14) MW..., rose, 12:05:44, 7/18/2000, (#22) Seeker..., shadow, 11:21:00, 7/18/2000, (#15) MW go public? What a laugh, pinker, 11:47:50, 7/18/2000, (#19) Definitely right, ericasf, 11:46:39, 7/18/2000, (#18) the neverending story, fly, 11:32:35, 7/18/2000, (#16) Smart guys don't change undies, mary99, 12:02:15, 7/18/2000, (#21) Mary99, freebird, 12:34:21, 7/18/2000, (#25) Freebird, Edie Pratt, 12:43:46, 7/18/2000, (#27) Mary99, gaiabetsy, 12:29:13, 7/18/2000, (#24) that's silly, ericasf, 12:22:03, 7/18/2000, (#23) Ericasf, gaiabetsy, 12:57:06, 7/18/2000, (#28) alibi?, ericasf, 11:48:10, 7/18/2000, (#20) ericasf, fly, 12:39:04, 7/18/2000, (#26) alibi, ericasf, 13:08:17, 7/18/2000, (#29) Changing Underwear and Diapers..., shadow, 13:24:14, 7/18/2000, (#30) But, Shadow,, gaiabetsy, 13:32:00, 7/18/2000, (#31) Alibi'ed by whom?, mary99, 14:48:49, 7/18/2000, (#34) gaiabetsy, ericasf, shadow, fly, 14:46:53, 7/18/2000, (#33) make a phone call, mary99, 15:01:48, 7/18/2000, (#36) Mary99, freebird, 15:19:56, 7/18/2000, (#38) No DNA, mary99, 17:34:27, 7/18/2000, (#53) There are , momo, 14:37:44, 7/18/2000, (#32) Pervert????, freebird, 15:09:31, 7/18/2000, (#37) Freebird, momo, 15:32:29, 7/18/2000, (#39) Momo, freebird, 16:17:19, 7/18/2000, (#44) Freebird, momo, 17:31:19, 7/18/2000, (#52) momo, fly, 14:53:15, 7/18/2000, (#35) fishing was a bust, mame, 16:08:07, 7/18/2000, (#41) Mame, momo, 16:11:31, 7/18/2000, (#42) mame, ericasf, 16:17:15, 7/18/2000, (#43) Fly, momo, 16:06:49, 7/18/2000, (#40) momo, v_p, 16:30:02, 7/18/2000, (#45) you know what V_P, mame, 16:46:33, 7/18/2000, (#47) Mame, momo, 16:49:15, 7/18/2000, (#48) v_p, momo, 16:43:50, 7/18/2000, (#46) Momo, mary99, 17:43:24, 7/18/2000, (#54) Mary99, momo, 17:53:06, 7/18/2000, (#55) Mame, I mean no disrespect, pinker, 17:14:41, 7/18/2000, (#50) Sheesh momo, v_p, 16:57:04, 7/18/2000, (#49) LOL v_p, momo, 17:16:00, 7/18/2000, (#51) well pinker, mame, 18:12:19, 7/18/2000, (#56) Boykin records, Rascal, 18:44:50, 7/18/2000, (#58) Mame, pinker, 18:26:14, 7/18/2000, (#57) MW's importance, Rascal, 19:14:51, 7/18/2000, (#61) well, time will tell, mame, 18:53:59, 7/18/2000, (#59) On Flaming Fleet , Lacey, 19:11:44, 7/18/2000, (#60) Lacey, rico, 21:12:52, 7/18/2000, (#64) lacey, ol' girl, mame, 19:47:28, 7/18/2000, (#62) or, i should say, mame, 20:26:56, 7/18/2000, (#63) Little ole housewives?, momo, 03:41:25, 7/19/2000, (#65) Let's Talk About Logic..., LurkerXIV, 10:27:19, 7/19/2000, (#69) nonissue, darby, 03:56:43, 7/19/2000, (#66) Isn't It Ironic..., Lacey, 10:23:23, 7/19/2000, (#67) Lacey, ericasf, 10:24:58, 7/19/2000, (#68) a couple more things, fly, 11:08:12, 7/19/2000, (#75) fly & MW's copy cat, Rascal, 12:51:50, 7/19/2000, (#84) Thank you, Ericasf, momo, 10:41:57, 7/19/2000, (#71) Lacey , darby, 10:35:25, 7/19/2000, (#70) This whole thing is really sad, freebird, 11:05:12, 7/19/2000, (#74) freebird, rico, 14:38:12, 7/19/2000, (#89) Malicious Intentions, Lacey, 10:57:39, 7/19/2000, (#73) It's perfect, darby!, mary99, 10:49:08, 7/19/2000, (#72) freebird & mary99, fly, 12:04:25, 7/19/2000, (#76) Lacey, gaiabetsy, 12:25:32, 7/19/2000, (#79) gaiabetsy, ericasf, 12:28:38, 7/19/2000, (#80) Back-Burner??, shadow, 12:18:00, 7/19/2000, (#77) priorities, ericasf, 12:23:49, 7/19/2000, (#78) Believe it or not, ericasf..., shadow, 12:31:06, 7/19/2000, (#81) Shadow, ericasf, 12:38:20, 7/19/2000, (#82) ericasf..., shadow, 12:49:48, 7/19/2000, (#83) ericasf,, gaiabetsy, 13:00:17, 7/19/2000, (#85) Gaia, ericasf, 13:25:35, 7/19/2000, (#87) My e-mail is for anyone interested -, gaiabetsy, 13:02:04, 7/19/2000, (#86) ericasf,, gaiabetsy, 13:35:25, 7/19/2000, (#88) ................................................................... "THE CASE AGAINST THE RAMSEYS IS GONE 2" Posted by ericasf on 06:08:21 7/18/2000 Bringing the thread over...... Morgan, can you bring us back to reality here and back to the point that you were trying to make in the first place so we can get back on track? [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "The MW Story" Posted by Real Stormy on 07:16:19 7/18/2000 Is, in my considered judgement, a hoax. In order to participate in the destruction of the reputation of apparently perfectly innocent people I need much more than "Trust me, I know the facts but I can't tell you." My life is not so boring that I must stir up some excitement and tittilation by joining a feeding frenzy, fueled by speculation, rumors and inuendo. I will have nothing further to say on the matter. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "Stormy" Posted by ericasf on 07:18:53 7/18/2000 Who said to trust them but they can't tell you the facts? I don't remember anyone saying that. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "erica" Posted by canadiana on 08:09:10 7/18/2000 Ginja did. Thread 1. So, basically did others who were able to learn of the 'facts' at Holly's. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "Orsen" Posted by mame on 07:22:56 7/18/2000 My new site, The Injustice Center, is dedicated to the sidetracking of justice in this case. What is Justice? And what happens when justice isn't served? In the last few weeks I walked away from my computer and took time to think about the last four years and what went on at The Circus. I compared that to Lady Justice. Who is to blame? The DA? The Cops? The FBI? The Ramseys? The Lawyers? The Media? The Friends? The Grand Jury? Dokka Lee? Smit? ..... When justice is not served we all lose. If this case had been handled with skill and speed we wouldn't have anyone to blame. No witness...no little reporter...no spin team...no poster on an internet forum..NO ONE COULD POSSIBLY SUCCEED AT SIDERAILING JUSTICE. Injustice is a nasty beast. A beast that grows like a cancer in our communities and our souls. No Orsen, it's not a side comment meant to defray responsiblity. Injustice with large doses of secrecy are the big ol' culprits here. It's the same cancer that has allowed many to believe they have all the answers. Many here believe they know who the good guys are...and who they aren't. Injustice is a poison in a free, democratic society. It's poison doesn't stop hurting and defaming. My work on this case has always been fueled by my belief that the US Constitution is a sacred document. I believe when justice is served we all win. No person can shake it or snare it. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "Maybe it's time..." Posted by shadow on 07:52:48 7/18/2000 for the MW to go public. The BPD and FBI have investigated HW's allegations and, as far as I know, have not been able to relate her allegations to the JBR case. I realize that many people on this forum have little confidence in the BPD, the FBI, Hunter and the DA's Office, the Governor of Colorado, and the Justice Dept - but this is all we have right now from the people in this case who count. So, where do we go from here? IMHO, it's time for MW, her doctor and her lawyer to go public. No, not the Boulder Camera, mame and the JW Forum. They must hit the circuit ah la JR/PR and ST - the national networks, the NY Times and Wash Post, and the talk shows (LKL, Geraldo, etc.). What's the problem with this? Those whom she will accuse already know who she is - those who want to hurt her already know who she is - in fact, everyone who matters knows who she is. MW's story has no visibility outside the small world of Boulder and the JBR forums... if it has a bearing on the JBR case, or, for that matter, real child abuse sex rings and porn in this country, it needs to be revealed nationwide. shadow [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "I agree" Posted by freebird on 08:14:09 7/18/2000 It is time that this is made public. I've heard about this traveling sex ring months ago, and then nothing further. As a parent and citizen of this country I do have a right to know if this is taking place.I should be warned so that I can protect my children. We are never safe when pediphiles walk our streets. There is NO justice if all this is true and everyone is so hush hush about this. What about justice for all the children who are supposedly still being abused in this ring?? how long should they wait for rescue? If this story is true and those of you (who were at the gathering) who seem to know more than those of us who did not attend. How can you possibly sit there with this inside knowledge and not bring worldwide attention to this and save the children who are still in this??? Silence does not keep MW safe, it keeps the 'others' from being rescued.enough is enough And if you have no inside knowledge of this then why all this sudden secret messages and attacks on FW, ST? I'm just not getting this. I am all for the investigation of what MW says. I'm just not going to pin a pediphile label on FW until there is some evidence. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "a question" Posted by ericasf on 08:16:34 7/18/2000 You are worried for your children's safety, well what if you were faced with every parent's nightmare, something happened to one of your children in BOULDER,CO! Do you honestly think that justice would be served? What would you do? How would you handle it? It's the same situation with JBR. We have taken her on as our daughter, in a way, and now it's time to fight for justice for her. That is what we have all been saying from the beginning. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 12. "Well" Posted by freebird on 08:28:59 7/18/2000 If I lived in boulder I would be making sure that a DA who doesnt prosecute criminals didn't spend a lifetime in office. Where I live now criminals are punished. We don't hand them a breakfast bar, pat em on the back and ask them not to do it again. We get them off the streets. We elect our officials, do they not do that in Boulder? I would think that now is the time to make a world wide caes of this. The internet is an excellent place to start. real information brought out in the open as it stand now we need a secret decoder for some of this. shout it from the rooftops, get something done, I'll help do the yelling, but I have to have something to tell. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "I started this thread" Posted by Morgan on 08:05:49 7/18/2000 to bring an issue to light: MW exists and will not go away no matter how much the BPD might want her to. Her claims need to be thoroughly investigated in order to dismiss them as invalid or not pertinent to JBR's murder, or to discover that her information leads to the truth. According to what I have heard and read in the paper, the BPD has bungled their "investigation" and abandoned it. They have earned the criticism they are recieving. If a prosecutor somehow grows balls in Boulder and prosecutes the Ramseys for the murder of their daughter, defense lawyers will stop the case in it's tracks with the information that MW presents--reasonable doubt. A thorough investigation into her claims could solidify the case against the Rams, and incriminate others as well. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 8. "morgan, one more question" Posted by ericasf on 08:14:23 7/18/2000 Can you help the people that were not at Holly's this past weekend understand that we didn't discuss anything that couldn't be said here. There is no underlying message that we are portraying. MW came up in conversation during the get together and we discussed once again how she could be involved. No one is keeping anything from anyone here. There is no hidden agenda. Just another aspect of the case that we wanted to discuss..... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 11. "Erica" Posted by canadiana on 08:27:38 7/18/2000 I hope this is ok to bring over from thread 1. I have not edited here, just copied and pasted. In thread 1, Ginja states: "We're supposed to be in this together...that is, all of us here at JW. We have a mission...to get justice for JonBenet. There are things we learn offline that we just can't put online. But I would think that after almost four years, posters would trust their fellow posters who get together to work case in RL. I'm not talking about posters who come here and claim they have a source and can't tell us...you all know who I'm talking about...there are several posters like that. What I'm talking about is when a group of us pull together on a weekend. I think if you look at the list of posters who came together this weekend, you realize this is a group who you all know are trustworthy and honest and are only in this for one thing...not fame for themselves, but justice for JBR. None of them are liars, not of them are cheats, none of them are going to take anyone else at JW for a ride! IOW, there's got to be some trust here and the realization that it would be suicide to post critical information that the Rams and their moles could twist and turn." ------------------- Ginja clearly states that things cannot be posted here that were learned offline. She states it would be 'suicide to post critical information..' My take on this is obviously that much was discussed that has not been posted and cannot be, apparently. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 17. "Let me try to straighten this out --" Posted by Holly on 11:42:19 7/18/2000 Not everyone was together at the same time talking about the same stuff, except when the FBI was there. A couple of things I heard surprised me but not others who said, "Where have YOU been?". I can't remember any bombshells. When mame talked about MW one poster was dozing and I was wondering if it was time for another MW audio. Everyone else was paying strict attention. IOW we might not all hae been hearing the same stuff at the same time. If I do remember a tidbit, I'll post it. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. "Info checked" Posted by Seeker on 08:26:02 7/18/2000 mame you said, "Oh by the way, the records in the Boykin case are sealed because MW was a minor. The case can only be released by her. She signed releases for the cops and fbi. She also offered over and over to take a lie detector test." Maybe she did offer to take polygraphs, but after so many years she could believe something that isn't entirely true. Memories play funny tricks on people. He only served 10 months for what? Rape is a FELONY (especially statutory rape) and he would have served PRISON time, not JAIL time for a whole hellava lot more than a mere 10 months. Big difference! Also, SHE has NO authority to release court records! (I checked) Only the court does and any law enforcement agency that requires that record as verifiable evidence in a case that may be related can petition the court for it to be unsealed WITHOUT the "witness'" written permission or knowledge. At least here in California. The FBI did not need for her to give them permission, she cannot release ANYTHING other than whatever (copies) info she has at her disposal, she did not receive copies of the court documents since she was a minor child. Morgan, I do deserve my name. I "seek" verifiable, real info, not just take someone's word as truth in a case where someone is being vilafied. In this case FW. I seek confirmation of the verbal evidence provided. I agree with you about the BPD, they botched it. There is an M.Boykin in SLO listed in the phone book and on many search engines. What do you think the chances are??? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. "Seeker" Posted by mame on 08:31:23 7/18/2000 you're wrong about the releasing of those records. They ARE sealed and can only be released by her. Better check your facts... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 14. "mame" Posted by Seeker on 11:00:51 7/18/2000 e-mailed a well known attorney in SLO to have him check it out. May take a couple of days to get the response. I'll let you know as soon as he does. I'm sure he will cite the actual laws for us (on release of this case info). What really bothers me is this article http://www.bouldernews.com/extra/ramsey/1999/25arams.html If Hunter is hot-to-trot on this issue as stated here, something smells. He won't go after the Ramsey's but will jump through hoops to clear them, or at least try to prove reasonable doubt due to MW's claims? He'll look for any excuse to clear them. Why? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 22. "MW..." Posted by rose on 12:05:44 7/18/2000 Facts are facts, truth is truth. If MW is so truthful then her story can be told outright to anyone who will listen. If her story is true, then the people she accuses have been put on notice and her telling her story to the public can't hurt any investigation. I don't trust anyone who hits and runs like she has done. Fleet White and his whole family has been dishonored and their reputations tarnished with just a few shorts sentences uttered by MW. I refuse to believe any of her allegations. She slings mud and then disappears, never publicly stateing her reasons. Secrets and things hidden in the dark never futher justice. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "Seeker..." Posted by shadow on 11:21:00 7/18/2000 After reading PMPT and Thomas' book, I had the same question. To wit, it appeared to me that Hunter and the men working for him had an agenda, and it conflicted with cooperating with the BPD and FBI. Posters can beat on ST and the BPD if they wish, but "something not right" in the DA's Office, also. If not, why was Hunter and his merry men on the FBI's sh*t-list? shadow [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 19. "MW go public? What a laugh" Posted by pinker on 11:47:50 7/18/2000 She already had her fifteen minutes. If the networks had wanted her they would have called. It would not be her option to approach the likes of Geraldo, they do their own booking and investigating. Geraldo may very well have poked around and seen the trail went nowhere. Ditto for larger news print organizations, they most likely did look into her allegations and the lack of massive coverage is the result of the findings. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "Definitely right" Posted by ericasf on 11:46:39 7/18/2000 Shadow, I agree 100% about something being aloof in the DA's office. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "the neverending story" Posted by fly on 11:32:35 7/18/2000 canadiana Good point. momo - I guess your computer doesn't show bold or you'd have seen that I clearly indicated LP's information isn't necessarily fact. I consider it, along with the little specific information MW and mame have provided, as something to consider. Neither set of information comes with any proof of its accuracy (shown to us, at least), and thus, both must be evaluated in the larger context. Part of that context, of course, is the source, but there's also the BPD's official announcement, the lack of major press coverage, and the Whites' decent, if not airtight, alibi. mame - In response to your post to me....Yes, I've read those points before, but they are far from strong support for your position. Like several others (e.g., Denver, RealStormy) have already clearly stated, the issue of failing to do a "surprise" visit is pretty weak evidence of a failed investigation. I won't restate that argument. As to your other point, it appears that BPD believes MW has suffered abuse, including that for which Boykin apparently was convicted. That puts the DA down a notch or two in importance. He'd say she told the truth once (something the conviction already supports), but would he really be able to address her current tale's credibility? Oh, but the FW sex ring was part of that old case? Perhaps, but as I've said before, consider the fact that that oh so supportive DA, who had the balls to file dozens of charges against Boykin, didn't do anything about that massive sex ring. I recognize your investigative limitations, but is there any reason you know for us to still be looking for output from those less incumbered investigative journalists? Is that rabbit ever going to be pulled from the hat? Also, your situation wouldn't prevent you from seeking specific clarification from BPD concerning the "ambiguity" of their comment about FW in the public statement, would it? Helping us out with that would be very much appreciated. Or did I miss that information while on vacation? mary99 - This couldn't be a coincidence? Why not? Remember the coincidences involving the Santas? For myself, I've never believed MW was a Ramsey plant, so that isn't the source of my continued skepticism. Skepticism won't derail a discussion based on facts, IMO, and is at least as healthy as being on the opposite side of the belief spectrum. As to a man changing a kid's panties...If the man's the adult there, I'd rather he change my kid's soiled panties than ignore the situation. To view this as inappropriate or suspicious suggests that you suspect a sexual predator in the soul of every male, which is sad. Seeker - I'm looking forward to the reply from that lawyer. While I would expect the victim's name to be witheld in any records of the Boykin case, I wouldn't expect the entire thing to be sealed. To all - I basically agree that the case is all but hopeless. I don't think FW's position is the problem, however, nor any failure to prove MW's tale true. There were significant holes in the case long before MW ever surfaced, which is why both BPD and the DA said enough evidence just wasn't there. Smit announced that the investigation stank, and Thomas handed the defense the basket full of dirty laundry, albeit somebody else's. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 21. "Smart guys don't change undies" Posted by mary99 on 12:02:15 7/18/2000 I won't go through a point-by-point rebuttal of your argument, but I will say this: any man who is alone with a six-year old girl and changes her underpants is a fool and leaves himself wide open for charges of sex abuse or inappropriate contact. In this day and age, when any innocent act could be misconstrued in the retelling by a child, parents will think and believe the worst... Other moms I know have also confided that their husbands won't leave themselves vulnerable to potential lawsuits or accusations of inappropriate conduct by ever being alone in the home (or automobile) with their daughter's friends. If the wife has to go out on an errand, the kids go with her, they don't stay with Dad. This is not because the father is a pedophile, it's to prevent the very kind of questions being raised here about White's behavior. Mothers have unanimously stated that they've worked too hard for what they have to lose it overnight over rumors, and changing a six-year-olds girls underwear because there was no other adult present is exactly the kind of destructive rumor they would hope to avoid. This underwear incident does not prove Fleet White molested JB, but it does prove to me that there was no self-protective behavior on White's part, nor was there any criticism from the Ramseys in the retelling. Furthermore, while I can't state for a fact PW wasn't home at the time, I do wonder why if Priscilla was home, why she wasn't taking care of this herself? Call it sexist or paranoid, but that's life in the nineties. Anyone who has access to legal advice and a family fortune to protect should know better. I wonder if he's still changing the undies of Daphne's friends? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 25. "Mary99" Posted by freebird on 12:34:21 7/18/2000 That speaks to me more of the Ramseys than FW. First I don't know of too many 6 yr olds who have TA's. what was going on to cause that??? 2nd If my child was a wetter, I would have insured that she knew how to use a washcloth and remove used panties for clean dry ones. This child could sing, dance, get on stage and do what she needed to do. I am so sure she was capable of changing panties. How and when did an adult male get permission to fiddle with the panties of a 6yr old girl? I hold the parents responsible for not setting those boundries. All the bases were covered when it came to preparing this child to be a beauty queen. dance lessons, how to walk,talk, dress, tutoring,haircoloring ect,ect. Yet this childs protection was ignored, parading her as a showgirl, allowing men to do personal hygiene, letting strangers waltz thru what is spose to be a safe place for them (the home) sleeping such a distance from your babies that you can't hear them, leaving doors unlocked, windows broken. Just makes me sick ya know [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 27. "Freebird" Posted by Edie Pratt on 12:43:46 7/18/2000 RIGHT ON! Your post reminded me of something that was reported awhile ago. The housekeeper said she'd walked in on JB changing clothes, and JB screached "Get out of here!", and covered herself. 6 year old allowing "Uncle" to change her, yet screams bloody murder because the female housekeeper saw her undressed? What's up with that? What was going on with that girl? Or, is somebody fibbing? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 24. "Mary99" Posted by gaiabetsy on 12:29:13 7/18/2000 as much as I want to believe FW is only involved up to his earlobes in this tragedy because he was simply an unwitting friend and accomplice to murder, I believe he didn't act appropriately with JonBenet. The sad problem is, I think lots of people in this world are raised to believe it's OK to assist a close friend's child in potty care. No, not in my family, it wasn't, yet, I gotta tell ya, my mother thought she protected me from so much. But, she didn't. I was molested by other male family members quite a lot, and according to her, she never suspected a thing. So, I guess we need to determine how a group of people are raised in a family and see what they believe and practice as "the norm" in their small society. Just to add to that last comment, I spent a lot of my life thinking everybody else I met or knew was really abnormal. My family raised me to believe their attitudes and behavior were the accepted norm. Even after I spent many years in school and church with other families, that old teaching superceded everything else I saw and wondered about. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 23. "that's silly" Posted by ericasf on 12:22:03 7/18/2000 To think that a man can not change a girl's underwear. As far as that goes, we don't even know if he just gave her the underwear to change or if he actually put them on her. He's a father. The families were close. JBR was like a daughter to him. I hope that if your husband was in the situation where a little girl that he was responsible for soiled her underpants that he would give her new underwear or help alleviate the uncomfort for her. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 28. "Ericasf" Posted by gaiabetsy on 12:57:06 7/18/2000 Hey, I'm not saying that no male person couldn't have been capable of changing that child's underwear without molesting her. I guess what I mean is I've polled all the males I know (and maybe they're just too damned polite and straight-laced) but EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM TOLD ME THE SAME THING. I find that interesting. Each said he'd most certainly look for another woman to perform this duty, or just ask the child to sit there and wait until her mother could be found. Not a single one of those polled said their first or second or third impulse would be to perform this act themselves - no matter how acquainted they were with the child in question. I will also stipulate my husband, very correct and courteous as he is (perhaps beyond what we'd call the norm now) said he would never have changed that child's panties. No way. He's 56 and a stick-in-the mud, but I think he might personify those adult males in that group at that night. Lest we decide my hubby was too shabby and lower class to consider doing such a thing, I will say he originates from one of those "fine old New England families" and they believe form matters much more than anything else. I think the men in that group with JB were of similar ilk. If not, they at least wanted to appear that way. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 20. "alibi?" Posted by ericasf on 11:48:10 7/18/2000 the Whites' decent, if not airtight, alibi What alibi? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 26. "ericasf" Posted by fly on 12:39:04 7/18/2000 Come on. BPD wouldn't clear (however imperfectly) the Whites of involvement - twice now - if they had not had a reasonable alibi. Their alibi, as I recall, involved statements from others in the house that were up late into the night. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 29. "alibi" Posted by ericasf on 13:08:17 7/18/2000 So you are assuming that they had a really good alibi? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 30. "Changing Underwear and Diapers..." Posted by shadow on 13:24:14 7/18/2000 OK - I'm a male, 67 years old... I've never changed the underwear or diapers of a friend's kid, male or female. I have, however, changed the underwear and diapers of my daughter and granddaughter. As I recall, they both stopped soiling by the age of 2 or 3. The above is just to play this silly game! We don't really know if the FW story is true or not, do we? It is interesting to me how things written in a book (not even the Bible) or posted on an Internet forum can suddendly become facts that are used to support or question a theory or opinion... that's probably why I have so much trouble having one (theory or opinion, that is). shadow [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 31. "But, Shadow," Posted by gaiabetsy on 13:32:00 7/18/2000 while I applaud your honesty, I gotta tell ya, it's just proving my point about most men (especially emerging from your generation and fidelity) wouldn't or almost couldn't change the underpants or diapers of a female child from a close family. Nope, nopey, nope, no way. That's what I sincerely believe. If you care to debate this further, the address is hdc@ispchannel.com. I'm here. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 34. "Alibi'ed by whom?" Posted by mary99 on 14:48:49 7/18/2000 ericasf, good point. The CA guests backed up Fleet White's alibi for his Christmas party and post-party whereabouts...kind of like JR backing up PR's alibi for the same time period. Since we don't know whether the CA guests were in on the post-party party or not, we can't trust what they say about White's whereabouts or actions around midnight. We've already seen JR's and PR's statements vouching for each others actions and whereabouts disintegrate based on their being asleep and therefore unaware of what the other was doing. Likewise, taking the word of the CA guests and saying Fleet White had a 'strong alibi' is as meaningless as the Scamseys self-sponsored polygraphs. Let's see a few of those guests and the Whites take polygraphs and submit to some FBI questioning...otherwise it's just empty words. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 33. "gaiabetsy, ericasf, shadow" Posted by fly on 14:46:53 7/18/2000 ericasf - I'm pretty content with the idea that the White's alibi probably warrants the "strong" descriptor, but I used the word "reasonably" to recognize the very slight possibility that there is some vast conspiracy involving all the houseguests aka sex rings members, and perhaps the Stines and anybody else the Ramseys saw on their way home (depending on which sex ring scenario one favors). shadow - You are absolutely right about facts not necessarily being facts. Do we even know "for sure" when Fleet was supposed to have done this horrific deed of changing JBR's pants? Or whether he did more than give minimal assistance and basic reassurance, for that matter? gaiabetsy - So if you were male and were the adult in charge while the kids played, you'd just let the kid sit around in her wet/dirty underpants? How considerate of the child. There's no doubt that an "accident" at age 6 isn't usual, but if it did, indeed, happen, somebody had to do something about it. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 36. "make a phone call" Posted by mary99 on 15:01:48 7/18/2000 What would I do if a child wet their pants at my house? I'd call the mother up and ask her to come by and bring a change of clothes. If the child could change their own clothes, and they could wear what I might have on hand, I'd send them off to the bathroom ALONE to clean up and change. And yes, JBR, the singing, dancing, and performing wonder, who'd never have trouble delivering an oral book report, should have been able to stay dry at age six and change her own wet clothes if she had an accident. This story is cause for concern because it sets up an 'innocent' explanation for Fleet White's DNA being present in JBR's undies. And the Ramseys reported this without any concern for whether HE could have molested her. Kind of like when OJ said he'd 'dreamed about killing Nicole', when he was worried about flunking the polygraph. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 38. "Mary99" Posted by freebird on 15:19:56 7/18/2000 Was FW's DNA in JB panties? I didn't hear that. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 53. "No DNA" Posted by mary99 on 17:34:27 7/18/2000 No, the panty DNA has never been identified. My point was that IF it was identifiable, and belonged to FW, he certainly laid the groundwork for an 'innocent' explanation. That's all I meant to say. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 32. "There are " Posted by momo on 14:37:44 7/18/2000 websites in every state that list sexual offenders and pedophiles. It is scary to know just how many deranged men and women are out there who abuse children in this manner. They are all around us. They live on every street. It is a worldwide epidemic. I have a son and I would NEVER let just anyone change his pants or dress and undress him. When he plays sports in the future he will never be alone with his coach. It is a shame that you can't trust people out there but it is nonetheless the truth. Call me paranoid, but I know people who were abused by teachers, coaches, parents, grandparents, etc. All I can say is you better know who your children are with. Some people you think you know really well are capable of sexual abuse. As I stated earlier, sexual abuse runs more rampant than some of you would like to believe. It is like a disease that there is no cure for. Those offenders can not be rehabilitated. That is a fact. The Ramseys didn't teach their children boundaries. Why would they? They don't know what the term "boundary" means. As much as you don't want to scare your children about the evil that people are capable of, it is a must. Many a children have been saved from abuse and even death because of a good talking to. We had better wake up to the evils that surround us. Having said all that, no one knows whether FW ever abused JonBenet. Only her and him know that. I just happen to think he was opening himself up for scrutiny by changing her underpants. I have every right to give my opinion about him. He is a pervert and unless I find out differently I am sticking to that opinion. Oh, and he's a jerk too. The master letter writer who will write the war and peace of letters to seek justice for JonBenet won't even defend himself against someone who has accused his family of being involved in a sexual ring. For someone who is so persistent and who has such a terrible temper, you'd think that would really get him hot and bothered. Nopey, nope, nope. I guess those kinds of allegations don't constitute a response. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 37. "Pervert????" Posted by freebird on 15:09:31 7/18/2000 What in the world brought you to the conclusion that FW was/is a pervert??????? I definetly missed something. please share so we all know what it was he did, the man is still around children a pervert around children is not a good thing and you have a moral responsibility to make known what it is that makes FW perverted. If you have nothing more than what the rest of us have heard how can you possibly sit there and call a man a pervert based on that??? That is the most unjust thing that I have ever seen posted here. I am speechless at that statement. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 39. "Freebird" Posted by momo on 15:32:29 7/18/2000 How long have you been at JW to think that saying FW is a pervert is the most unjust statement ever posted here? I don't feel bad about saying that. I have good reason to think that. I don't have a moral obligation to you or anyone else as to why I think that. And it's not because he's been around children. It would be silly to say that just because someone is around children that makes them a pervert. It dosen't seem to me that you are speechless, otherwise you wouldn't have replied. I probably shouldn't be at the computer with the way I feel right now. This stone is killing me. Pain makes me hot headed. A word of advice is to scroll on by next time. I can be irrational when I'm hurting. Kind of like the baby movie where Kirstie Ally is in labor. Almost possessed if you will. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 44. "Momo" Posted by freebird on 16:17:19 7/18/2000 Sorry that your hurting and I hope this passes soon, I have heard that its worse than labor.a big ouwwwwwwweeeeee. Now I have only been here less than a year so I am very ignorant, as of yet I've only read Steves book, working on PMPT but it's sooooo big. Actually I really would like to know what it is that makes you think FW is a pervert, the man is no hero to me and if there is info that would lead me to believe as you do I would really appreciate it if you or anyone else would let me know. there is no way that I can catch up to the 3 or 4 years of info that you pioneers have heard seen and done. I know ya'll must get crazy repeating stuff but for us newbies it helps us to be more informed. So if anyone one would please enlighten me I would be grateful. laurie321@postmark.net thanx Again I hope you feel better soon. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 52. "Freebird" Posted by momo on 17:31:19 7/18/2000 Up until February 2000 I thought Fleet White was a hero. I thought he really wanted Justice for JonBenet. Now that I look back with what I've learned I believe he was attempting to cover his seat. The Mame/MW interview (the second one) gave me the impression that FW jr was one of her abusers as well as a couple of others at the Christmas party from CA. I went to the Dr. today and I'm about to have the "little one". It's about an inch away from my bladder and then it's coming. Wowwwwweeeeee! I can't wait. Thankyou Free for the vote of confidence. I'll be letting everyone know when it comes. We can have a virtual party. Will you bring the punch? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 35. "momo" Posted by fly on 14:53:15 7/18/2000 To say that FW never did anything to counter the accusations might not be quite correct. Although somebody else might have been the one who stimulated the DailyCmaera's rather defensive editorial about publishing the original story, it is also quite reasonable that FW was the one protesting. That he did not shout it to the sky, probably only producing more unwanted awareness of the bogus charges, does not mean he sat silently. We don't know what really occurred, do we? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 41. "fishing was a bust" Posted by mame on 16:08:07 7/18/2000 guess my fly fishing isn't improving quickly enough. i was hoping for fresh trout for dinner. i did do some great thinking out there today. i feel that discussions concerning specific people and names are not warranted and should not continue at this time. i have never named anyone's name...and will never do so in print or in my news reports. i do believe general discussions concerning the investigation, possible sexual abuse, witness protection programs, etc. should continue as always on this forum. i respect every opinion on this forum when presented with respect and fairness. the investigation into The Witness's claims will take a very long time. The FBI told her that it could be 12 months or longer. So, we're in for the long wait... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 42. "Mame" Posted by momo on 16:11:31 7/18/2000 Patience is a virtue....... I can wait. It's worth it. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 43. "mame" Posted by ericasf on 16:17:15 7/18/2000 You amaze me. You are such a great person. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 40. "Fly" Posted by momo on 16:08:58 7/18/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 16:08:58, 7/18/2000 I think we would know if he raised a stink about it, wouldn't we? No letters, newspaper ads, press releases. Strange, isn't it? Edited to say that the only thing we know is that the BPD stated that the Ramseys were not involved in a sex ring and that the Whites were not involved in the murder of JonBenet. Nothing more, nothing less. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 45. "momo" Posted by v_p on 16:30:02 7/18/2000 >>>How long have you been at JW to think that saying FW is a pervert is the most unjust statement ever posted here? I don't feel bad about saying that. I have good reason to think that>>>> Please share. I have not seen anything to lead me to believe Fleet White is a pervert. Is it because someone, (his mother), was the Godmother to MW's mother...whatever. I certainly don't find this justification for calling him a pervert. Did MW state FW molested her??? IMO, the sexual molestation phase of JBR's murder was the least pronounced assault. Hell, Doctors can't even make up their collective minds as to whether she had been sexually molested for certain. Poor excuse for a sex ring leader, if you ask me. I just love the way some people grab a big ole oar and stir the crap and then walk away to avoid the fumes; and I hate slow news days. V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 47. "you know what V_P" Posted by mame on 16:46:33 7/18/2000 my dad used to have a saying..."you can't be a little bit pregnant..." i feel that way about this story. the one and only thing the story by The Witness needs is a full and complete investigation. No talk show circuits and fact dropping will fuel the need for information. if i had the need to feel a weekly ego boost...i would have cheesily given you a document here...a compelling fact there. WHY? i don't need the ego boost...AND hell they are all BIG RED DOTS. the one and only thing that could connect these dots is a full and complete investigation. until that investigation is full and complete the story and the allegations are just "a little bit pregant"! i have not tried to stir things up and walk away. i'm NOT walking anywhere, except to that damn trout stream again next week. waaahhhhhh! i reported a story that is still being investigated. i'll report it again when the investigation is full and complete...just like any story i've covered. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 48. "Mame" Posted by momo on 16:49:15 7/18/2000 Sort of like when Nedra said that JonBenet might have been "somewhat" molested. What in the hell does that mean? How sickening. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 46. "v_p" Posted by momo on 16:46:41 7/18/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 16:46:41, 7/18/2000 I got the impression some time ago that FW jr. was one of MW's abusers also. I believe I heard the same interview everyone else did. JonBenet's hymen was 3/4 corroded. It didn't get that way on it's own and certainly not from bubble baths. She WAS sexually abused. Why do you want to discount the vaginal injuries? By the way, I don't stir up the crap and then leave. Not that I like the smell of it but I stand by what I say whether it's kosher or not. Edited to say that I am offended that some of you find me offensive. Anyone who knows me knows I am not the least bit offensive. Just ask me, LOL! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 54. "Momo" Posted by mary99 on 17:43:24 7/18/2000 I'll vouch for you! Posters, momo is sweet and softspoken, but full of anger at a child's abuse at the hands of predators who destroyed her life--first MW and then JB and who knows how many others in between. Mame is right, we can't speed up justice, we can only wait for it work its way through the maze. But what we CAN do is keep calling out for that 'full and complete investigation', lest those in charge forget we are watching and waiting. While momo might strike you as harsh, in person she is anything but. Hope you feel better soon, momo. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 55. "Mary99" Posted by momo on 17:53:06 7/18/2000 Thank you so much for the compliment. You are sweet. I had such a good time with you and the gang. It's great to put names and faces together. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 50. "Mame, I mean no disrespect" Posted by pinker on 17:14:41 7/18/2000 How can you emotionally detach yourself from a victim when they are your interview subject? Is it even harder when the situation includes the dynamics of child murder and abuse? Many people have a different vantage point that excludes a personal, emotional connection so MW is heard in a different light. From what I remember didn't she even stay at your house? That almost seems unethical. Lots of pregnancies end in spontaneous abortions or misscarriages. There are also false pregnancies where hormones used to determine pregnancy are for other reasons at the same level as in a pregnancy. How come a complete investigation is needed to connect those dots if they are already big and red? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 49. "Sheesh momo" Posted by v_p on 16:57:04 7/18/2000 I was not at all referring to you. I hate that you feel I was. Heck, I even tried to help name the little one :( >>>until that investigation is full and complete the story and the allegations are just "a little bit pregant"!<<< Mame, as LW would say, Amen sistah! BTW, there is no such thing as "a little bit pregnant...is there? V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 51. "LOL v_p" Posted by momo on 17:17:24 7/18/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 17:17:24, 7/18/2000 It's funny you should mention naming my baby. I went to the urologist today (finally). My stone has moved 8 inches since it's conception. It's about 1 inch from my bladder and it's KILLING me. I am in so much pain right now. I told someone up above that when I'm in pain I am a you know what! The Dr said once it gets in the bladder it's smooth sailing from there. Hurray! If I have offended you I'm sorry. I got the impression from the 2nd Mame/MW interview that FW was one of her abusers also. JMO I don't want to think he is capable of that but something really bothers me about him and the way acted after the murder. In Atlanta, the Paughs felt like they needed to hide a gun before he came over. Seems there was an underlying feud going on between the families. They haven't talked to each other since. All my opinion of course. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 56. "well pinker" Posted by mame on 18:14:00 7/18/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 18:14:00, 7/18/2000 you can call my role in this unethical if you so choose. i stand tall with my head way up high concerning my role in helping and reporting on a courageous woman in need. i am not alone in my call for a full investigation. you might be surprised someday to find out who joins me in that passion. however, for now, if you need to call it unethical, be my guest. i would do it again and again and again. edited to add, to whoever said i was emotionally detached, you don't know me well. the events of the last few months have changed me forever. i can NEVER be detached from things that have moved my passion and my heart. EVER... back to my fly fishing manual... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 58. "Boykin records" Posted by Rascal on 21:57:23 7/18/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 21:57:23, 7/18/2000 I offer a little records clarification. Mame is correct to the records that relate only to the minor (MW) in the Boykin case. The records in relation to the initial charges against M. Boykin 'are' public records. The final judgement which was a plea agreement is also availiable and public record. I have been to Independence,Ca. and had copies made for a cost of 18$. The court house is like out of a western movie. The charges are intercourse and oral copulation with a minor. M. Boykin was put on probation and alcohol abuse counseling was demanded. MW's statements of early activity at younger age is not in any public record. The charges against M. Boykin have nothing to do with MW as a pre-14 year old minor. the final charges have only to do with MW as a 16 yr old minor. If you want records call the Inyo County court Clerk in Independence, California. The cost is 1$ per copy, get the address and send them the money. I got the charges and final judgement. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 57. "Mame" Posted by pinker on 18:26:14 7/18/2000 My point is that to be 100% objective in your reporting you do need to be emotionally detached. You yourself just admitted this is not the case you have a strong emotional attachment to MW. This can make the reporting unbalanced, one sided, or misconscrewed. It's akin to a doctor treating his own family, that's probably more appropriate than that 'unethical' cut-I appoligize for that. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 61. "MW's importance" Posted by Rascal on 19:14:51 7/18/2000 I hear MW talking about childhood sex issues and I'm not saying it's not important. But if MW wants to help find a murderer of a child then she needs to focus to who she talked to. MW would be a tremendous help IMO if she sit down and listed all the people in the period 1989 to 12-25-96. The talk focus being her description of childhood abuse methods. And in addition any talk of the Ramseys. MW could also help by listing people who her Grandmother talked to on the same subjects. The list with dates and locations in Los Oso, Ca. and outlying areas in San Luis Obispo. The person Paul Flores who is a suspect in the disappearence of Kristin Smart in SLO is also of interest. A female person with mother on Woodland Ave. Los Oso is of interest. The woman is Blond/white, 23 yrs old bird tatoo calf to knee, earrings, rings, red flower tatoo on lower back. She has lived in Boulder County. MW needs to consider the female as far back as a young pre- high school 80's person listening to MW's stories. Maybe sitting around while talking to adults. A child listening to MW's amazing tale of abuse. A child now grown to adulthood. If MW has legitimate concern for Justice and protection of other children, I don't think this is unresonable to ask of MW. It may lead to a suspect. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 59. "well, time will tell" Posted by mame on 18:53:59 7/18/2000 pinker. i have surgeons in my family...a brand new one as of this weekend from johns hopkins (congrats to my cousin bobby). in emergencies they do treat their families. i've seen it done over and over. time will tell if my choices were correct or not. til then, you can muse and judge. it's fine by me. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 60. "On Flaming Fleet " Posted by Lacey on 19:11:44 7/18/2000 Fly, you're right. Some people like to think they know so much but they don't know what Fleet told investigators! You have no way of knowing that! Whatever he told them, apparently that and the evidence (or lack thereof) was sufficient to satisfy investigators. And I've got beeeg logic problems with a little group of online housewives leveling accusations against Fleet White or ANYONE and then demanding we prove it's not true. Talk about ROTFL! I think it's time the confirmed ACCUSERS went public, eh? Why on earth you all think FW should care what a bunch of Internet posters have decided about him is beyond me. I'm sure he talked to those that matter.. as in, the investigators. However, if YOU went public with your smarmy accusations, came forward a la the inFamous Four on Leeza, why, maybe that would induce Fleet White to respond! Or not. You know, it's not that he's arrogant. You're just insignificant vultures. Why bother. Sorry, but these dotted-line connections of yours do not add up to pedophile sex ring featuring Fleet White. Just don't, no way. Do carry on Lacey . [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 64. "Lacey" Posted by rico on 21:12:52 7/18/2000 standing ovation here! The truth about MW will never be popular as long as mame is in her corner. Don't know why she goes fly fishing; she sure hooked some whoppers in MD, as in hook, line and sinker. "What is Justice?" Sure as hell know what irony is. JfJBR [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 62. "lacey, ol' girl" Posted by mame on 19:47:28 7/18/2000 WE WILL! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 63. "or, i should say" Posted by mame on 20:26:56 7/18/2000 ladies, start your aprons... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 65. "Little ole housewives?" Posted by momo on 03:41:25 7/19/2000 LOL I am a hard working single mother. I don't sit around the house concocting stories or fantasies about what I think someone may have done or not done here. I use logic in my thinking. You should try it sometime. Also, seems there are some here that are mighty jealous about the JW get together. You could have come. Everyone was welcome. And no, we don't know anything more than the rest of you. Sheesh, I'm glad my 5 year old isn't as whiny as some of you. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 69. "Let's Talk About Logic..." Posted by LurkerXIV on 10:27:19 7/19/2000 ...who is (are) logically the person(s) most likely to benefit from allegations that Fleet White, best friend of John Ramsey and one of the last people to see JonBenet alive, is a pervert and member of a child sex ring? That's right -- John and/or Patsy Ramsey! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 66. "nonissue" Posted by darby on 03:56:43 7/19/2000 Maybe Fleet White has been raising a ruckus behind the scenes. Maybe he hasn't. We don't know. But it has no bearing on anything, really. I've thought it strange that it appears that he has done nothing. Upon re-thinking, I don't think we can conclude anything based on whether he's done this or not. The real question is--did he ever sexually abuse a child? This is the question that I believe has been raised and needs to be addressed. It's irrelevant whether or not he's been making a fuss over MW's allegations. It's a nonissue, so let's drop it. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 67. "Isn't It Ironic..." Posted by Lacey on 10:23:23 7/19/2000 Edited by AutoScan(c) Don't you think? Tip of the hat to Alanis Morissette.. 'Tis ironic indeed, that some forum flotsam with a storm-the-bastille mindset make monstrous accusations vs FW and demand he deny them - but hey, doncha dare refer to them as a horde of bored hausfraus! WE are SLEUTHS, they declare.. LOL! Carrion. Lacey Edited to say, maybe not "ironic" after all.. just typical. . [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 68. "Lacey" Posted by ericasf on 10:37:10 7/19/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 10:37:10, 7/19/2000 Are you always this negative and rude? Not one person has taken a personal stance on you but yet you keep on putting everyone else down. I for one am not condemning FW. I haven't said a word about FW but I'm getting tired of reading post after post of you putting others down because of their theories. I have never had any interaction with you until now but I just kind of am taken back because people are throwing out possibilities and you are just being really unkind to them..... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 75. "a couple more things" Posted by fly on 11:08:12 7/19/2000 mame - Do I correctly take your post ("WE WILL") to mean that you or other JW'ers are soon to be appearing on some major TV show, writing that long lost article, or some other highly public, specific facts (or at least specific accusations) statement? Who, what, when, and where? Any chance of you ever helping clear up the ambiguity of the police statement by switching your fisherman's hat for your journalist's one and asking BPD for clarification? As I've said each other time I've asked (and been ignored), it would be a real service. And just think - it might shut me up. ;-) momo - I hope you've "given birth." Be thankful you're female. Getting to the bladder is only the halfway point for males, I'm afraid. Rascal - I assume you are the person who provided LovelyPigeon with the Boykin information LP posted on another forum? If so, did her post represent the facts correctly? That is, most of the 64 charges dropped because records showed Boykin wouldn't have had the opportunity to molest on those dates. About people being "jealous" of those who attended the get together - For myself, I can honestly say that my requests for info sharing or my challenges of questionable arguments are not from any jealousy at missing the get together, and I suspect that that is probably true for most here. It is rather unfair to suggest essentially that if somebody wanted to be privy to the story, they should have come to Md. Money, time, and other issues prevent most from traveling. As canadiana (I think) posted earlier, if an intelligent, informed discussion is desired, everybody needs to have access to the facts. Consider this, too: I've never seen anybody suggest that posting hello-wish-you-were-here-boy-we-are-having-a-great-time stuff while at a get-together is showing off or lording it over the non-attendees, although that attribution might be accurate for some. It's too bad negative attributions now are being made when people ask to be filled in on more than the food and the games. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 84. "fly & MW's copy cat" Posted by Rascal on 12:51:50 7/19/2000 The Boykin court documents are public record at INYO County court clerk in Independence, Ca. LovelyPigeon is a capable person who doesn't sit back and speculate on hearsay. She got the records by paying for the copies at the source. There never was 64 counts 'filed' against M. Boykin. There was 'twelve' original alledged counts and he plead "no contest" to two (2). One count 'oral copulation' & another sex with a 16 yr. old minor under duress. Boykin after a short County jail time was released on probation. The unconvicted charges were dismissed, and the youngest age of (MW) minor in those charges was 14. The conviction of two counts of Boykin in no way IMO diminishes MW's overall story. I'm interested in MW"s statements from the position of who she talked to in Los Oso. The years back to 1988. I believe it possible that a young person heard her tale. The young person then acted as a 'copy cat' of what MW described in her life and added more twist & turns. The person's mind-set is one of seeing 'signs' toward future acts. MW's story and JBR's life are two such signs coming together from Los Oso to Boulder. The 'signs' and 'opportunity' collided on 12-25-96. The sign seeer left Boulder " at Christmas 1996." The sign seeer spoke of talking to a "carpenter wearing a police bracelet" at a Boulder County construction firm 1997. The sign seeer attended some high school in Boulder County. The sign seeer was big in the UNI party scene and clubs. MW should develope the list of listeners of herself & grandmother, and do with it as she believes is right. IMO MW is a key information person. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 71. "Thank you, Ericasf" Posted by momo on 10:41:57 7/19/2000 Lacey reminds me of an insecure teenager. You know the kind, so smart and everyone else is so stooooopid! Everyone has a right to their own opinions about this case and I for one will not back down from them. If MW's story does not pan out I will be the first to admit I was wrong. On the other hand, I still think Patsy murdered JonBenet. Just because I think FW may have abused or been a part of someone's abuse does NOT mean I think the Ramseys are not responsible for the death of JonBenet. The FW issue happens to be somewhat a part of this case because him and the Rams were friends. And yes, if someone had accused me of sexual abuse I would be responding to the allegations. But that's just me. I can now see why so many abused children and adults do not come forward. There are people out there whos hearts are hardened. Rigor mortis has set in or something. I'm just glad I don't live in some fantasy world where I couldn't possibly believe that abuse happens in the many forms that it does. I know it does, I've lived it. I don't know why people are not sympathetic to it, I just know they are. Five minutes of it would make them believe. That I can guarantee you. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 70. "Lacey " Posted by darby on 10:40:58 7/19/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 10:40:58, 7/19/2000 You'll appreciate this: (edited to say I didn't read this in full the first time, and it's worse than I thought. This is pretty vile, so don't go there if you are easily offended. Lacey is not.) http://www.kottke.org/plus/misc/alanis.html Open question: Does anyone on this forum know Fleet White personally? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 74. "This whole thing is really sad" Posted by freebird on 11:05:12 7/19/2000 Some of you should go back and reread what you have posted. I have read that FW was a morally empty pervert, not only him but generations of his family. Sthomas is/was defending him so what is his deal? All the little if's, supposings and crap is unreal coming from people who say they are here looking for justice. How can you possibly be seeking justice if you care not about a mans family and reputation, how the things being said about him can affect not only him but also his children? wouldn't seeking justice include not slandering the father of 2 children? just associating him with child molesting is an horrendous accusation. One that cannot be 'UNDONE', this man and his family could forever be branded a pervert who rummages thru little girls panties because some of you want so much to 'do right' by MW. We cannot undo the damage that was done to MW if her story is true. And we certainly have an obligation to MAKE SURE that it IS true before we throw out accusations and general statements that lead people to believe a certain person is a child abuser. As a victim myself I expect that every accusation is looked into and validated before anyone is forever known as a molester. Just one wrong accusation makes it very difficult for the next victim to be taken seriously. There is no justice in that. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 89. "freebird" Posted by rico on 14:38:12 7/19/2000 Excellent post. Wish I had said it. And as an abuse survivor yourself, I applaud your courage and good judgement. Wrong or right the "label" can never be undone. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 73. "Malicious Intentions" Posted by Lacey on 10:57:39 7/19/2000 The MW Phenomenon. These pseudo-sleuths. Their case is built on sinking sand and the only so-called *proof* is the word of the MW, even though she has been discredited by an investigation with the remains turned over to the FBI. Apparently yes, the BPD handed it to the FBI to pursue as they see fit. And that was their obligation, to turn it over to the appropriate agency of investigation. Seems so simple, but not to conspiracy theorists sighting sex-rings around every corner, eh? To put it mildly, the MW speculation went way too far and was too far fetched. Eventually I came to the conclusion that this group was more interested in turning titillating speculation into fact than to uncovering the truth, i.e., the myth of the mystery woman. I watched in horror as they made fact out of factoid and moved MW up the food chain from flavor of the day to center of the investigation, serving up roast Whites as main course. Though stunned, still I held my comments to the end of the investigation. And many of you still have the audacity to cry foul and minimize the extent of their appalling behavior. What was done to the Whites on this forum was reckless and irresponsible. If you are not bashing Fleet White, then don't take my admonishments personally! They went too far and continue to do so and when I see it I flame it. Lace . [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 72. "It's perfect, darby!" Posted by mary99 on 10:49:08 7/19/2000 That was a good find! The way some people here defend FW...they must know a side of him we haven't yet seen! Or is it wishful thinking? I'll take a witnesses statements over what can be inferred from a few paragraphs in three books. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 76. "freebird & mary99" Posted by fly on 12:04:25 7/19/2000 freebird - nicely stated mary99 - It isn't that we know a side of FW you don't, it's that perhaps we care a bit more about having some evidence that checks out prior to publically condemning somebody. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 79. "Lacey" Posted by gaiabetsy on 12:25:32 7/19/2000 hey, I agree. When the info came out about MW, I was at first repelled, and then felt deeply for her. Reason for the flip-flop probably has to do with my own experiences with child molestation. People like me are reared to categorize anyone with damaging information about some of our caregivers as malicious and completely wrong. I actually have to say I felt repulsed by the idea MW was telling the truth. And yet the logical, thinking part of me questioned all of that from the very beginning. How could I, a child abuse victim, just automatically put this woman down and be so sure she was wrong? NOW, THAT'S NOT LOGICAL. After stepping away from the fray for awhile, I began to feel great sympathy and empathy for this woman. There was no doubt in my mind she'd been abused. None. Here's the catch. I wonder if whatever (legitimately and horribly) happened to this woman really has anything much to do with the JBR case? I mean it. And I'm not trying to discredit her at all. I just know when you're a victim of lots of traumatization and abuse, you dissociate. You leave your body. You might (after the fact) be told all sorts of things by "safe and well-meaning people" and you believe them. You begin to take up a "black-out" as being "the gospel." My thoughts. OK, I'm ready - flame me. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 80. "gaiabetsy" Posted by ericasf on 12:28:38 7/19/2000 I completely respect and understand your point of view. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 77. "Back-Burner??" Posted by shadow on 12:18:00 7/19/2000 I just reread what mame said - "i respect every opinion on this forum when presented with respect and fairness. the investigation into The Witness's claims will take a very long time. The FBI told her that it could be 12 months or longer. So, we're in for the long wait..." IMHO, if the FBI told her the investigation would take 12 months or longer, for whatever reason, it ain't one of their high priorities! shadow [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 78. "priorities" Posted by ericasf on 12:24:56 7/19/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 12:24:56, 7/19/2000 As far as FBI and priorities go, when the FBI agent was at Holly's for our get together, it was inferred that the FBI prioritizes crimes on a tier system. If you look back at "the gang's all here" thread, you will see my notes. I'll go get them and paste them here again.First was an overview of his particular division, the Resident Agency. Then he gave us the full history of the FBI. One thing that I did note is how they divide crimes that they are responsible for into 3 tiers: Tier 1 is for national security issues; Tier 2 is for Integrity, White Collar, Political Crimes; Tier 3 is for crimes against individuals and properties. He said it's not like tier 3 doesn't get the full attention but manpower is dedicated in order of the tiers. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 81. "Believe it or not, ericasf..." Posted by shadow on 12:31:06 7/19/2000 I know a little bit about FBI procedures. However, I will go take a look at your notes again. shadow [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 82. "Shadow" Posted by ericasf on 12:38:20 7/19/2000 My apologies if you thought I was being a smart a**. You should know me better than that. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 83. "ericasf..." Posted by shadow on 12:49:48 7/19/2000 The truth is, I was being a smarta**! Does this mean our "date" is cancelled? shadow [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 85. "ericasf," Posted by gaiabetsy on 13:00:17 7/19/2000 Please e-mail me with your point of view about stuff. I think you appreciate my point of view, but are quite honest and able to wade through the junk to be fair. Look, I need help in this regard. I guess you suspected that. Deal is, because of my history, I'm not sure if someone is guilty or I just want to "torch them" cause they're alive. You know? Any logical help is greatly appreciated. Peace, Betsy [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 87. "Gaia" Posted by ericasf on 13:25:35 7/19/2000 I tried to email you but it didn't go through [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL ericasf ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 86. "My e-mail is for anyone interested -" Posted by gaiabetsy on 13:02:04 7/19/2000 gaiabetsy@ispchannel.com I'd actually love to hear from all points of view. Some people say I'm Libertarian. I say I'm Taoist/Buddhist. Guess it could be the same. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 88. "ericasf," Posted by gaiabetsy on 13:35:25 7/19/2000 sorry, wrong address. We've just changed it - hdc.ispchannel.com. Anytime. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] ARCHIVE REMOVE