Justice Watch Discussion Board "Witness, Wines & Woes #2" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... Witness, Wines & Woes #2, Holly, 04:58:21, 7/21/2000 rascal,, Holly, 05:22:24, 7/21/2000, (#1) skepticism revisited, Greenleaf, 06:11:08, 7/21/2000, (#2) Well said, Greenleaf..., shadow, 07:02:08, 7/21/2000, (#3) still waiting..., Dianne E., 07:42:54, 7/21/2000, (#4) Greenleaf..., rose, 09:39:50, 7/21/2000, (#5) Hmmm, what's this?, mary99, 13:38:42, 7/21/2000, (#9) Kali2 to Holly, Rascal, 11:55:01, 7/21/2000, (#6) Rascal, mary99, 13:23:30, 7/21/2000, (#7) the silence.., Dianne E., 13:35:58, 7/21/2000, (#8) You know,, gaiabetsy, 13:46:47, 7/21/2000, (#10) useful but not earth-shaking, mary99, 13:56:18, 7/21/2000, (#11) White, lake, 15:47:45, 7/21/2000, (#15) I do not understand..., mary99, 14:44:45, 7/21/2000, (#13) Darn you,, gaiabetsy, 15:19:40, 7/21/2000, (#14) Post #85, Maude4, mary99, 15:48:00, 7/21/2000, (#16) lakey, dear, Seashell, 16:44:50, 7/21/2000, (#18) mary99, Rascal, 16:35:55, 7/21/2000, (#17) Beware!, Seashell, 16:46:58, 7/21/2000, (#19) You Got It, Real Stormy, 17:44:31, 7/21/2000, (#22) what keeps coming to mind, Edie Pratt, 16:58:11, 7/21/2000, (#20) Well, lake, 17:22:05, 7/21/2000, (#21) ????????, freebird, 17:53:35, 7/21/2000, (#23) Well, lake, 18:17:48, 7/21/2000, (#24) Stuff my bird?, freebird, 18:55:45, 7/21/2000, (#25) Enough, lake, 21:13:49, 7/21/2000, (#26) More ?? for Rascal, mary99, 21:17:40, 7/21/2000, (#27) The Ramsey House of Twist & Turns., Rascal, 22:29:12, 7/21/2000, (#30) Oh, lake, 21:23:00, 7/21/2000, (#28) rascal., Holly, 21:23:54, 7/21/2000, (#29) Rascal , mary99, 22:58:52, 7/21/2000, (#31) Huh? It there a full moon tonight?, Seashell, 00:56:44, 7/22/2000, (#32) Seashell please consider, Rascal, 22:24:38, 7/22/2000, (#61) Seashell... LOL!, LurkerXIV, 10:42:50, 7/22/2000, (#37) LOL Seashell, v_p, 06:38:55, 7/22/2000, (#33) vague recollection, luvsflowers, 08:35:19, 7/22/2000, (#34) luvsflower, Please, I want to see this post., Rascal, 22:28:18, 7/22/2000, (#62) The Virgin's blood., Rascal, 10:01:28, 7/22/2000, (#35) Six year old girls have secret friends..., LurkerXIV, 20:05:14, 7/22/2000, (#51) Seems to Me, Real Stormy, 10:26:51, 7/22/2000, (#36) lake, darby, 10:53:52, 7/22/2000, (#39) Real picky Stormy, Rascal, 10:43:18, 7/22/2000, (#38) Rascal, darby, 11:03:46, 7/22/2000, (#40) Darby, Rascal, 12:14:25, 7/22/2000, (#41) Who, darby, 12:18:20, 7/22/2000, (#42) I don't know who., Rascal, 22:09:02, 7/22/2000, (#59) Love the book title, Rascal, Real Stormy, 12:22:59, 7/22/2000, (#43) Very Entertaining Fiction...., Voyager, 12:57:10, 7/22/2000, (#44) background noise, mary99, 14:58:59, 7/22/2000, (#45) You're Welcome, Mary99, Real Stormy, 15:06:58, 7/22/2000, (#46) The moon IS full!, Seashell, 16:11:53, 7/22/2000, (#47) Real Stormy, v_p, 16:15:40, 7/22/2000, (#48) some peanuts.., Dianne E., 18:16:41, 7/22/2000, (#49) DianneE, I didn't say true., Rascal, 22:00:02, 7/22/2000, (#58) Dianne E., LurkerXIV, 20:08:35, 7/22/2000, (#52) I'm King of the weirdos', Rascal, 22:30:55, 7/22/2000, (#64) v_p, Real Stormy, 18:57:41, 7/22/2000, (#50) Guess What?, Real Stormy, 20:27:32, 7/22/2000, (#53) Uh Oh, v_p, 20:36:01, 7/22/2000, (#54) Ok, Rascal, lake, 21:43:53, 7/22/2000, (#56) Stop mis-quotes please lake, Rascal, 22:41:32, 7/22/2000, (#65) Last name Lake., Rascal, 21:56:40, 7/22/2000, (#57) LurkerIV.., Dianne E., 21:43:26, 7/22/2000, (#55) God forbid, Morgan, 22:19:54, 7/22/2000, (#60) Morgan.., Dianne E., 22:29:04, 7/22/2000, (#63) Forum Mythology 101 , mary99, 23:11:16, 7/22/2000, (#66) Well, Rascal, lake, 00:31:17, 7/23/2000, (#68) Mother/Destroyer=Rage inside? Yes, Rascal, 00:18:09, 7/23/2000, (#67) John Ramsey, lake, 00:59:48, 7/23/2000, (#69) lake, mary99, 01:42:17, 7/23/2000, (#70) Kali2's letters, Rascal, 08:23:04, 7/23/2000, (#75) M99, lake, 02:32:10, 7/23/2000, (#71) Two sets of friends, mary99, 02:49:38, 7/23/2000, (#72) Fleet and the Grand Jury has, Holly, 05:16:23, 7/23/2000, (#73) v_p, Real Stormy, 08:17:38, 7/23/2000, (#74) sources, Matt, 10:29:08, 7/23/2000, (#77) Hi Matt., Holly, 14:12:29, 7/23/2000, (#79) Holly, Gemini, 10:23:49, 7/23/2000, (#76) Well, Mary, lake, 13:52:32, 7/23/2000, (#78) Four Mysterious Slayings, Rascal, 15:22:17, 7/23/2000, (#82) The Real Thing???, shadow, 15:19:12, 7/23/2000, (#81) Honorable Fleet White, straykat2, 15:13:20, 7/23/2000, (#80) Injustice In Colorado, straykat2, 15:23:43, 7/23/2000, (#83) Maybe not, lake, 16:41:32, 7/23/2000, (#85) Hmmmmm, freebird, 17:02:34, 7/23/2000, (#86) Oh, lake, 17:07:18, 7/23/2000, (#87) Oh Pleazzzzzz, freebird, 18:11:42, 7/23/2000, (#88) Eloquent? hardly, IMO, mary99, 16:22:44, 7/23/2000, (#84) FW & PW's Letter Is, Abby, 19:50:39, 7/23/2000, (#89) I think, v_p, 20:06:40, 7/23/2000, (#90) John is wordy too..., Nandee, 20:26:54, 7/23/2000, (#91) Please, lake, 22:02:29, 7/23/2000, (#93) FW AND JR LETTERS, short timer, 21:51:24, 7/23/2000, (#92) short timer., Holly, 11:18:44, 7/25/2000, (#98) Lake.., Dianne E., 22:33:18, 7/23/2000, (#94) short timer, Seashell, 23:42:02, 7/23/2000, (#95) Whites,BPD Vs. Ramsey, DA & others., Rascal, 10:32:54, 7/25/2000, (#96) Wow, Rascal..., shadow, 11:07:43, 7/25/2000, (#97) ................................................................... "Witness, Wines & Woes #2" Posted by Holly on 05:28:44 7/21/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 05:28:44, 7/21/2000 Carry on... I must have WINE on the mind. After reading rascal, even at 8 am, I need a glass... Of course the title should read WHINES. [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "rascal," Posted by Holly on 05:27:44 7/21/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 05:27:44, 7/21/2000 You met a woman who lived in Boulder at the time in question. She has a tongue stud, white blonde hair, body art, a kid, and family members curently living in Boulder. You began a realtionship with her and you were not satisifed with some of her cryptic and provocative statements. That compelled you to notify BPD of your insights, which were ignored except for the green return receipt card. She went back to Boulder then back to CA. You then wrote to a Boulder minister of your concerns. Then Team Ramsey arrived in an SUV and stretch limo and began an intimidation game, by leaving symbols that must have meaning to you, like the sailor hat. You suspect they wondered if you were the perp. You will take a poly to confirm you are being truthful. MW was spooked by these events, having been notified of the Ram team interest by the Whites. Is that correct? The Whites, who have a well known link to BPD, used this insider info to their advantage and began to attempt to silence the real problem -- Mystery Woman. A very odd coincidence. Meanwhile, the blonde girl has an aunt who works in Boulder County, who observed a carpenter wearing a police bracelet. Although I have no idea what a police bracelet is. This was seen as symbolic that things had cooled down in Boulder. Severely stressed that the BPD was closing in, MW shared concerns with Bienkowski and finally ended up contacting Lee Hill. So far so good? Now, here is my question, rascal. I admit the timing is interesting. And this girl is Boulder strange. And I absolutely think the intimidation is possible, BUT WHAT DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH THE ACTUAL CRIME? Did she actually say something about JonBenet? Did she know the Whites? What is the connection to the topless dancing? Keep it coming, rascal. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "skepticism revisited" Posted by Greenleaf on 06:38:04 7/21/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 06:38:04, 7/21/2000 The most damaging evidence against O.J. was the lady who (allegedly) saw him, fleeing the scene of the crime in his white Bronco. (I'll call her Jane Doe.) She lost all creditability when she sold her story to the tabs; thus, becoming useless to the prosecution. Subsequent to the tab story, her name was hardly ever mentioned again. I have often wondered if the outcome of the case would have been different had she kept her mouth shut; telling her story only to the police and D.A. I view Mystery Woman in somewhat the same light as that of Jane Doe. She (MW) may or may not have damaging evidence against the Whites. However, imho, her story looses its creditability each time she tells it outside law enforcement. Whereas Jane Doe's claims were simple and straightforward; i.e., she saw O.J. leaving the scene of the crime in his white Bronco, MW's claims are mind boggling. All the more reason to limit her conversations about them to authorities only. Sex rings do exist. I know that. Sexual abuse of children does exist. I know that. Long term sexual abuse does exist. I know that. However, I know this too: There REALLY ARE good and decent people in the FBI and other law enforcement agencies who would lend kind ears to a sexual abuse story, ESPECIALLY when such a story could be tied into the JonBenet case. Until and unless proven otherwise, I cannot tarnish the name of FW, based on hearsay evidence from Mystery Woman. The Rams alleged involvement** in MW's story reminds me of the bushy-headed stranger in the Dr. Sam Sheppard case, the lady with the floppy hat in the Dr. Jeff McDonald case, and the running man, early on in this case. Love and peace to all those who seek justice for JonBenet and all abused children everywhere. Greenleaf **please don't jump on my bones; I did say alleged. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "Well said, Greenleaf..." Posted by shadow on 07:02:08 7/21/2000 I believe it's fair to say that there are some of us on this forum who have not "trashed" the MW while still asking that posters withhold judgement on both the MW and FW until all the facts are in. I hope I fall into that category - shadow [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "still waiting..." Posted by Dianne E. on 07:42:54 7/21/2000 ..It looks like MW's information that these "attacks" by Boykin was exagerated or possibly never happened. Hmmm, to me that means a few of the dots that were on the board get erased with that one. And NO I am not attacking MW, lacking in any sympathy toward her or dancing over her sad life, I am seeing a picture of a very disturbed person. I cannot connect a single dot to MW and any direct relationship to the murder of JonBenet. Ritual abuse can happen in many ways, places and times, a sex ring or group event is not always the major component. A mother can brutally murder her child on Christmas as part of a Christian ritual abuse to cleanse and release the child to heaven and never participate in a sex ring or hang out with ritual abuse clubs. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL Dianne E. ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "Greenleaf..." Posted by rose on 09:39:50 7/21/2000 I feel the same way you do. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "Hmmm, what's this?" Posted by mary99 on 13:38:42 7/21/2000 From Lilac at another forum: I don't think that John Ramsey has participated in any form of child abuse or sexual misconduct by any stretch of the imagination. I think he just got mixed up with friends who he doesn't really know very well or know how they live. Fleet White may or may not be involved with such conduct, but because of "business" that he's (I'm pretty sure -- missing one link)involved with, makes me very suspicious of him. Someone once told me about a connection they had made between FW and a certain company. It's funny, and I could be wrong, but it's simply amazing when you start researching that particular company. I don't know if anyone I know can prove he's part of this company, but if so, I'll bet even the BPD take a second look. This company claims to be a "publishing company" so I thought, "Well, alright, we'll just see". I was headed a few states over on vacation anyways, so made a pitstop to check out one of their "publishing company" addresses in Reno. I wasn't at all surprised to find, not an office, but a -- shall I say -- rather risque shop. Also, I searched on this company's president and found out that there was a legal hearing (that's right, folks, judge and all, to make it authentic) in Australia. It involved a trademark dispute, but within this legal document (which I've saved somewhere, I think)it actually says (in a legal document!) that (I'm paraphrasing, here) this company is "dirty" and it's president "Joe Blow" is also known as "Josephine Blow" (oops, no dirty joke intended. hee). How's YOUR day, going? >>>Any ideas anyone on what company this might be? And is this a transvestite she's referring to? I wonder if Fleet OIL is mixed up in this mass. :) PS: Does anyone out there know if FW has ever been married previously? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "Kali2 to Holly" Posted by Rascal on 12:02:02 7/21/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 12:02:02, 7/21/2000 > > > > NOTE: >This message was last edited 05:27:44, >7/21/2000 > > > You met a >woman who lived in Boulder at >the time in question. She >has a tongue stud, white blonde >hair, body art, a kid, and >family members curently living in Boulder. > And I must include Los Osos, Ca., Arroyo Grande, San luis Obispo around University. She is today 23 yrs. old. The rest of your statement Holly is a Yes. >You began a realtionship with her and >you were not satisifed with some >of her cryptic and provocative statements. > Yes, and also she had Colo. car plates and she stated Boulder Christmas 1996 to me 6-97 in Los Osos, Ca.. >That compelled you to notify BPD of >your insights, which were ignored except >for the green return receipt card. > Yes, That and more compelled me in end of Oct. 1997. The unwillingness by Kali2 to exactly state time and date of Boulder Christmas departure was a red flag. The two letters she sent me have some likeness in the scibbles, x's, zeros, $$$$ signs, excalmation mark, and the less common letters of the ransom note. >She went back to Boulder then back > to CA. She went back to boulder 10-97 and returned (to the scene?) no later that 5-15-98. The death of Ms. Chase in this time period has not missed my attention. >You then wrote to a Boulder minister >of your concerns. Yes, the Presbyterian Boulder minister 12-30-99 post date. >Then Team Ramsey arrived in an SUV >and stretch limo and began an >intimidation game, by leaving symbols that >must have meaning to you, like >the sailor hat. You suspect >they wondered if you were the >perp. You will take a >poly to confirm you are being >truthful. Mr. Ramsey was in the Navy. The other objects, events and activity were symbolic of Mr. Ramsey. I got the message loud and clear. I'm a father of a daughter and I can understand another father being really pissed off in the tragic loss of a daughter. >MW was spooked by these events, having >been notified of the Ram team >interest by the Whites. Is >that correct? Not really Holly, I don't know if the Whites ever brought up Ramsey team to MW. You would have to ask MW. Holly if you want to speculate then state (IMO). I think IMO that MW was spooked by Whites and her recognition of her experience with likeness to JBR's tradgedy. I think IMO MW's reaction was reasonable as to a person of her life history. >The Whites, who have a well known >link to BPD, used this insider >info to their advantage and began >to attempt to silence the real >problem -- Mystery Woman. A >very odd coincidence. I think you are very wrong here with this self opinion loaded question. IMO the Ram team wanted MW to speak with them, Lou Smit, and the BPD/DA Hunter. I must include that she did finaly talk to them all. The "evidence" is what leads to the perpetrator. It is not the "evidence" being constructed around a suspect by police or others opinions of who they think dun-it. >Meanwhile, the blonde girl has an aunt >who works in Boulder County, who >observed a carpenter wearing a police >bracelet. Although I have no idea >what a police bracelet is. This >was seen as symbolic that things >had cooled down in Boulder. Holly please, not "observed" She talked to her aunt at the construction firm and also at same conversation time to the carpenter/police bracelet person. Holly, I also did not know the term "police bracelet". I now know it to mean "HANDCUFFS". A carpenter with police handcuffs is my opinion of kali2 statement meaning. A"sign" of the "trouble" in Boulder blowing over there. IMO Kali2 left Boulder because of "trouble" there Christmas 1996. Holly, one can speculate to the old saying-the perp's return to the crime scene- may fit here or it may not. The BPD/DA, the legal system/jury State of Colorado,or the Sumpreme court must determine and are the final word of guilt. >Severely stressed that the BPD was closing >in, MW shared concerns with Bienkowski >and finally ended up contacting Lee >Hill. Wrong Holly, MW IMO was stressed over the Whites contact to her. She also may have had deep legitimate concerns about other SLO activity. The Rex Allen Krebs arrest in name alone had to disturb such a sensiive person as MW. She was also living with and caring for in my understanding a elderly Grandmother. A lot of work and responsibility for a woman with a tramatic past. MW IMO was living with intense past & present stressors. The therapist was a logical person for MW to turn to for help. I would also reccommend for interest only Lee Hill's lunch conversation/meeting with news editor as per time issue and inside info of MW. MW never sounded to me as if she was at all avoiding the BPD or any authorities in telling her story. >So far so good? Holly, I'd say only at 50% right. Sorry >Now, here is my question, rascal. >I admit the timing is interesting. > And this girl is Boulder >strange. And I absolutely think >the intimidation is possible, BUT WHAT >DOES THIS HAVE TO DO WITH >THE ACTUAL CRIME? Suspect=Opportunity and motive, including the possible associations and gathering of inside information. >Did she actually say something about JonBenet? > Did she know the Whites? >What is the connection to the >topless dancing? She did not speak a word of JBR or Ramsey's or the crime. I cued her a number of times and she would immediatly withdraw and end conversation. Kali2's statement about the Boulder news on JBR death was 'zero'. Kali2 never made a opinion or statement of JBR murder orally or in writing of two letters to me. When I spoke of it she moved away. No confirmed association with Whites or Ramseys. The topless dancing is about information to any others who may have known Kali2 in Boulder. > Keep it coming, rascal. I encourage any Boulder County residents whom may know of Kali2 by description to contact BPD/DA Hunter with information. I can not confirm KALI2 was or is a official suspect. I do state that Kali2 is in the term a "coincidence" as to her activity in Boulder. Also as well as her time-line between Boulder and SLO, Ca. > [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "Rascal" Posted by mary99 on 13:23:30 7/21/2000 Progress, progress. Do you know if Kali2 might have been staying at a rental house on the same street as the Ramsey's house at the time of the murder? Do you have any address to link her to in Boulder? I'm not asking you to share here, just wondering if she is linked to a specific place in Boulder. Could she have attend the 'wild party' which went on close to the Ramsey home on 15th St Christmas night Dec. 25th? I have followed bits of this story as it has been posted over the past few months. You wondered if she may have driven straight to CA to see her mother for the 'surprise' Christmas visit right after the murder time. Can you estimate the time it would take to accomplish this? I live far from the area and have no firsthand knowledge of the feasibility of this. Was it possible given the weather conditions and travel time? Was her car in good enough condition to attempt such a trip if indeed she did drive straight through? More input is welcomed on this topic, Rascal. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 8. "the silence.." Posted by Dianne E. on 13:35:58 7/21/2000 ..from all of MW's supporters about the information Lovely Pigeon dug up on Boykin etc. is curious to me, does this in any way shake your strong feeligs toward MW's ability to be truthful? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL Dianne E. ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. "You know," Posted by gaiabetsy on 13:46:47 7/21/2000 so many things about MW's recognition of those times with the Rams and the Whites sound like me - in other words, about someone who was truly traumatized but - in a line-up- could never identify the perps. I think MW was terribly hurt, but she (in my opinion) could never ID the people involved. No way. Maybe if she'd been shown photos, but that ain't exactly good enough. No way. I went to Law School (hey, I ain't exactly proud of it) but I know what LOGIC is. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 11. "useful but not earth-shaking" Posted by mary99 on 13:56:18 7/21/2000 Dianne, the info is certainly useful to have, but like most cut-and-dry legal documents, doesn't really tell the whole story. It's obvious relevence as a record of a crime committed by Boykin against MW is gratefully acknowledged. Where you seem to feel, however, that it's the last word on MW's credibility is where I differ. Many court records leave a LOT out, and this is no exception. However, those charges he was sentenced on and the plea he entered are sufficient for me to assume there was indeed a serious crime comitted. Very often in the 'real world', a guilty person will accept an Alford plea (nolo contendre-no contest) vs take their chances at trial. Also through back and forth with the DA and defense attys a deal is often worked out in exchange for the offer to accept probation and alcohol treatment vs incarceration. Boykin did not come out smelling like a rose, but he most likely was offered some terms to accept or reject in order to see his sentence suspended with time served. As seen here at the forum, there remains doubt over whether he actually abused her or not, or if the problem was more related to alcohol abuse. Call it making the best of a bad situation; he has succeeded in minimizing the severity of the abuse by reducing the counts to one instance of each. To me MW has lost nothing in terms of credibility. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "White" Posted by lake on 15:47:45 7/21/2000 I have had difficulty in reconciling Fleet White's actions with this crime for over two years. It was my determination back in early 1998 that FW was dirty. Not clean. But what was it that made him dirty? It seemed clear early on that White reacted too strongly to being considered a suspect by the investigation. The prospect of being a suspect scared the hell out of the man. So he "lit a match to his hair". I figured that desperate times required desperate measures and that was the man's way with dealing with stress. Set your hair on fire and dream about grand alliances by the authorities to obstruct justice in the JBR murder investigation while the whole damn world watches. Now years later, information comes forward that may explain the frantic behavior of FW from the beginning and why he would be frantic not to be considered a suspect. But it does not follow that FW was directly involved in the killing of JBR. On the contrary, the logical conclusion would be that he was not directly involved and had no knowledge of killing until after the fact. But it would seem that from day one, he "knew" the why and maybe the who of the killing of JBR. His actions support that conclusion. It appears that the delima FW was in from the beginning was that the exposure of the why (and maybe the who) of the killing of JBR would expose things FW wanted to keep from public view. But the prospect of being throughly investigated as a suspect would also expose things that FW wanted to keep from public view. So it appears that FW had to see that the focus of the investigation stayed on the Ramseys at all cost, and that he position himself to keep the investigation from moving to him and whatever it was he had to hide. And White had the good fortune of having the ear of an inexperienced, unethical, ego maniac by the name of Steve Thomas. A man who could be easily taken in and mislead by White. Because White is very smart and Thomas was just a dumb cop in over his head in a murder investition. And the dumb cop wanted to solve the case and make an arrest. Thomas was a duck soup for White. IMO, FW is too smart IMO to have had anything to do with the planned killing of JBR and a lame attempt to frame the parents, with his knowledge the baggage he personally was carrying. Just like JR and PR are too smart to have done the stupid things some here maintain they THINK the Ramseys did. So, both the Whites and the Ramsey's have reacted and acted as if they both have something to hide. But neither couple as acted or reacted as if they were involved in the killing of JBR. IMO of course. And to me it is important that important elements of the crime scene seem to relate more closely to claims made against the White side of the equation than it does to the Ramsey side. IMO this problem cannot be solved without introducting the White factor into the equation. People have tried for over three years and have only come up with absurd "answers" that do not pass the laugh test. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. "I do not understand..." Posted by mary99 on 14:44:45 7/21/2000 Why are you angry at me? I'm aware that you were hurt and your brother was the one who abused you. Yet what you say does not relate to anything I have done or said. Please explain, if you wish to carry on a discussion. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 14. "Darn you," Posted by gaiabetsy on 15:19:40 7/21/2000 I'm absolutely ashasmed I have to prove myself, but, guess what, I've lived in my own skin for a long time. Deal is, we'll never get along about this stuff. You want me to be precise and accurate about all the miscdemeanors and there ain't no way. I'll tell you this, I've spent a great deal of my life trying to make sure child-molesters will come to their just rewards, and as of this time, the bad guys will win. As much as I know I'm actually right, ain't no way I can proove it I can't tell you how despondent that makes me. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "Post #85, Maude4" Posted by mary99 on 15:48:00 7/21/2000 Gaiabetsty, if you feel there will never be justice, you aren't alone. If you give up trying, you'll never know what might have happened if you had persevered. Maude4, post 85 on the Witnesses, Whines and Woes thread had some insight from her own experience, which although somewhat disheartening, is also a reminder of how much people in the mental heath system, the legal system and the sexual abuse field DO CARE. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "lakey, dear" Posted by Seashell on 16:44:50 7/21/2000 You speak of the Whites and Ramseys being too smart for this or that, but what you forget is that smart people can be very sick. IMO whoever did the cover up was both smart and sick. The killer may be just sick, not necessarily smart. Sick people kill, smart/sick people kill but it takes someone very smart to get away with it for almost 4 years. I wonder why it is that I just can't give Patsy enuf brains to pull everything off alone? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 17. "mary99" Posted by Rascal on 16:35:55 7/21/2000 >Progress, progress. >Do you know if Kali2 might have >been staying at a rental house >on the same street as the >Ramsey's house at the time of >the murder? NO >Do you have any address to link >her to in Boulder? No, she is of the habit of living with others, at there residence. A hard person to follow a paper trail on. She also likes to work for cash. She prefers outdoor employment. >I'm not asking you to share here, >just wondering if she is linked >to a specific place in Boulder. > She spoke specifically of the University area, but no residence or specific house. >Could she have attend the 'wild party' >which went on close to the >Ramsey home on 15th St Christmas >night Dec. 25th? I don"t understand the type of persons who attended this party. Her three favorite words are -party, party -party!!! >I have followed bits of this story >as it has been posted over >the past few months. You wondered >if she may have driven straight >to CA to see her mother >for the 'surprise' Christmas visit right >after the murder time. Yes, my time-line speculation for her is the 12-27-96 arrival at Los Osos, Ca. It is a twenty hour drive from Boulder, and she did drive. >Can you estimate the time it would >take to accomplish this? 20 hours drive time, maybe less if you speed. She was traveling with a young male child. >I live far from the area and >have no firsthand knowledge of the >feasibility of this. >Was it possible given the weather conditions >and travel time? Again, I have no 'confirmed' time of her actual arrival date and time from Boulder to Los Osos. She has with purpose IMO avoided the actual date & time when I sought that from her. > Was her car in good enough >condition to attempt such a trip >if indeed she did drive straight >through? The car did make it, and to the straight thru, I do not know. I do know she goes to Las Vegas sometimes to meet her Boulder County aunt there to PARTY! She may have stopped in Las Vegas. >More input is welcomed on this topic, >Rascal. I could now use info on any younger relatives of Detective Linda Arndt attending High School in Boulder County. I could use any information on any relatives of or Mike Lenhardt (LHP) son-in-law attending High school in Boulder County. I could use any information on the Hoffman siblings attending High School in Boulder County. I could use any information of construction companys Steve Thomas worked for or still works for in Boulder County. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 19. "Beware!" Posted by Seashell on 16:46:58 7/21/2000 Someone posting here is very suspicious. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 22. "You Got It" Posted by Real Stormy on 17:44:31 7/21/2000 Seashell--in fact, several. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 20. "what keeps coming to mind" Posted by Edie Pratt on 16:58:11 7/21/2000 is WHY WERE FW AND JR FRIENDS? Don't know about you, but I choose friends carefully. I don't call just anyone, my bestfriend. And, when I did have a bestfriend, I told her EVERYTHING. Now, if I were into some kinky things, I imagine I'd choose my friends even more carefully. I would stick to my own kind, people I could trust to show my real self to. Friends I could show PICTURES to, too. I know nothing about FW, nefarious or nay, only looking for the bond between he and JR. I'm only suggesting that maybe FW acted strangely when he saw JB, because he had seen something like it in pictures. Maybe he and JR took a little stroll to his workshed xmas night, and JR got ideas. I do not believe he had a direct hand in JonBenet's murder. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 21. "Well" Posted by lake on 17:22:05 7/21/2000 The bond between JR and FW appears to have been the love of sailing. They only knew one another for 2 years according to them, and JR was busy growing a high tech company. FW on the other hand seemed to have time enough on his hands to plan their sailing outings and change to panties of JBR and his own daughter, baby sit and be Mr. Mom while JR tended to corporate business. Nobody said what PW was doing while FW played Mr. Mom. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 23. "????????" Posted by freebird on 17:53:35 7/21/2000 Well if ya wanna go there, where in the hello was the worlds infamous MOM when her childs panties were being changed? Playing with Burke? I think not. Now did that question really slip your mind? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 24. "Well" Posted by lake on 18:17:48 7/21/2000 How about helping out a Burke's new school, attending to charity work, while JBR played with her new best friend and the new best Mr. Mom was kind enough to watch the kids. After all, he was going to be minding his kids anyway? Now go and stuff your bird. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 25. "Stuff my bird?" Posted by freebird on 18:55:45 7/21/2000 While that sounds interesting I think I'll spend that time with my children seeing as how mine are still ALIVE!!!!! Kinda puts things back in perspective huh. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 26. "Enough" Posted by lake on 21:17:13 7/21/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 21:17:13, 7/21/2000 Of this bird seed stuff. I want to ask Rascal if the chick he was attempting to hit on was Alecia? Or is it spelled Alesia? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 27. "More ?? for Rascal" Posted by mary99 on 21:17:40 7/21/2000 Rascal, we have compared this case for a long time to the Wizard of Oz. Is Kali2 a character who is featured in The Wizard of Oz? Please, no flames. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 30. "The Ramsey House of Twist & Turns." Posted by Rascal on 22:29:12 7/21/2000 >Rascal, we have compared this case for >a long time to the Wizard >of Oz. >Is Kali2 a character who is featured >in The Wizard of Oz? In "The Wizard of Oz" Toto reveals the false male God & Dorthy in her goodness becomes the Hero. Kali2 isn't a hero, or giver of freedom, virtue, or hope as was Dorthy. In "The Ramsey House of Twist & Turns" the perp reveals herself as "VICTORY!" She is a poor wana-be a "FAT CAT" who belives she's the Goddess of Victory! Andrasta is the anti-hero, she is the giver of death, destruction, and choas as is the perp. Who died in the Wizard of Oz, no one, the evil witch melted did she not. JBR died in the real world. A childhood fantasy out of control. She thinks she is uncatchable and all the "FAT CATS" out there would be easy pickings, for the little spot of money each one would have to give. She doesn't like mothers turning little girls into feminine female beauty Queens. Barbies. She created a horrible scary death for all little girls to fear, and this story of the little beauty queen will be told for 100 years. IMO >Please, no flames. Walt Disney hasn't produced the movie of this old evil British tale. To scary, to true, and far to real. Kali2 is obsessed with Brad Pitt, not Disney, see "SEVEN." 1994 & 1996 video. View it three times please. The Ramseys aren't characters in some old British tale for your 'comic relief.' BYE, Rascal [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 28. "Oh" Posted by lake on 21:26:05 7/21/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 21:26:05, 7/21/2000 Rascal has a real person he is looking at. I just want to know if it is Alesia. And is Eric aka as Rex Allen? If you know. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 29. "rascal." Posted by Holly on 21:23:54 7/21/2000 Just a note. Anything I write is IMO. Thanks for the in depth response. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 31. "Rascal " Posted by mary99 on 22:58:52 7/21/2000 OK, the girl in question isn't named Dorothy, nor is she a hero(ine) in any way shape or form. She was motivated perhaps to kill a child who was exquisitely beautiful and thus avenge--WHAT? She might have had knowledge of the MW story, she might have had access, but what was the motive? Could she be a thrill killer at heart? How might she be connected to JBR's pets? Did she find work walking dogs or possibly train or groom them? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 32. "Huh? It there a full moon tonight?" Posted by Seashell on 00:56:44 7/22/2000 What madness is going on here? Have some of you forgotten that the Ramseys are involved in the death of their daughter? It sounds like the RST is really desperate to pin this on another woman, (someone from the land of OZzie and Harriet?) even tho JR himself said that it's a HE, and HE wrote the note; and I'm going to hold him to that. Do we have another lake-like poster who seems to be several different people with lake-like spelling? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 61. "Seashell please consider" Posted by Rascal on 22:24:38 7/22/2000 I disagree with Mr. Ramsey, I believe he's wrong on male pedophile. I would suspect the Ramsey's if: JBR was actual kidnapped and had disappeared; if JBR had disappeared into the Colorado mountains; if JBR had disappeared into the Michigan lake or woods. I can't find them suspect when JBR was found in the cellar garroted in their home. It's to much like asking to be charged with the murder. The Ramsey's had many more choices than Boulder to commit the crime or bury the body. We all may be wrong. IMO [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 37. "Seashell... LOL!" Posted by LurkerXIV on 10:42:50 7/22/2000 "What madness is going on here? Have some of you forgotten that the Ramseys are involved in the death of their daughter?" Somebody's elevator does not go to the top floor, IOW, he's two sandwiches short of a picnic. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 33. "LOL Seashell" Posted by v_p on 06:38:55 7/22/2000 >>(someone from the land of OZzie and Harriet?)<< V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 34. "vague recollection" Posted by luvsflowers on 08:35:19 7/22/2000 I remember somewhere sometime someone posting that there was a young woman given a speeding ticket on the night of the murder somewhere outside of but close to Boulder but that maybe she was traveling with a small girl. And there were childrens clothes in the car. It seems that this was posted a long time ago. Anyone else remember such a post? have more details? Luvs [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 62. "luvsflower, Please, I want to see this post." Posted by Rascal on 22:28:18 7/22/2000 >I remember somewhere sometime someone posting that >there was a young woman given >a speeding ticket on the night >of the murder somewhere outside of >but close to Boulder but that >maybe she was traveling with a >small girl. And there were childrens >clothes in the car Was the car white small compact with sunroof? A white blond female? Earrings, silver rings, tatoos? What time was it? >It seems that this was posted a >long time ago. Anyone else >remember such a post? have >more details? >Luvs [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 35. "The Virgin's blood." Posted by Rascal on 10:09:15 7/22/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 10:09:15, 7/22/2000 >OK, the girl in question isn't named >Dorothy, nor is she a hero(ine) >in any way shape or form. > OK >She was motivated perhaps to kill a >child who was exquisitely beautiful and >thus avenge--WHAT? It's not about to act in order to avenge some past wrong or event. The act is totally futuristic in the desire to acquire perp's self percieved three motives. >She might have had knowledge of the >MW story, she might have had >access, but what was the motive? I spent some time with a gentleman named T-Hee and his wife. T-Hee was the person in head of the film "Fantasia" for Disney. T- hee was a cariture artist. The people who work as artist for Disney have a high creative intelligence. I understand creative intelligence. *The artist, the perp's primary drive is her creative intelligence. The first and greatest element of this drive to motive is the ability to outsmart-smart people like you MARY99. The second element is cultural/social conflict or better known as "Victory!" is "WAR". The social conflict was poor economic class position, and the cultural conflict is anti-Barbie rich beauty queen. The third element is need of control. The female creatively intelligent perp has developed a stable of 'male' accomplice's in pre and post crimes to the and including the JBR death.IMO She does operate in two states. Boulder too SLO. The "ransom note" is all about control as an example. The female perp's primary idenity is that of the "THIEF". She steals objects to use in the murders. Such as: Patsy's>>>Paper, Pen, Paintbrush. The other pre-murder stolen items are the flashlight,duct tape, rope, stun gun, Santa Bear, house keys, house blueprints, baseball bat,etc. The big question is what she stoled fom the Ramsey's house on 12-25-96 and took away that night, I say "JBR's DNA". She will use the DNA in future crimes. And so the reason for vaginal bleeding for her source of sample. A trophy hidden. The virgin's blood is highly important to the perp. To acquire the virgin vaginal blood was the high elation point of crime for perp. The only item carried out of Ramsey house that night was 'BLOOD' sample. IMO The perp also has a strong association with person's in the know of "police tactics" of evidence collection. One can think of this as "right under the Boulder dick's noses". Yes, there are minor elements pertinate to her person. I'm not going into detail. > >Could she be a thrill killer at >heart? She wears a large colored "heart" in her Boulder County High School picture. The thrill is minor to her and the physical sensations are deminished and controled by alcohol and drugs. The mental elation is her sex and reward. >How might she be connected to JBR's >pets? Did she find work walking >dogs or possibly train or groom >them? I don't know. Animals are a very big aspect of her person. The actual living animal and the use of animal personifications is big in her life. I suspect IMO animals were the contact point between her and JBR as a secret relationship. Six year old females develope secret friends, some imagined, others real. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 51. "Six year old girls have secret friends..." Posted by LurkerXIV on 20:05:14 7/22/2000 ...just like this: "She wears many earrings,silver rings, tongue ball, a red flower tatoo on lower back, and a bird with decorations on calf to knee. she is a white female with whitish/blond hair. And spoke of topless dancing" Somehow this seems more like the type of "secret friend" preferred by John Ramsey, rather than by his innocent little girl. BTW: I saw a babe of this description recently in a movie. It was either "Fight Club" or "Being John Malkovich". It seems that Rascal's imagination gets stirred up by movies.....just like the writer of the ransom note! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 36. "Seems to Me" Posted by Real Stormy on 10:26:51 7/22/2000 That Rascal understands creative writing too, if not correct spelling. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 39. "lake" Posted by darby on 10:53:52 7/22/2000 I have had difficulty in reconciling Fleet White's actions with this crime for over two years. It was my determination back in early 1998 that FW was dirty. Not clean. But what was it that made him dirty? It seemed clear early on that White reacted too strongly to being considered a suspect by the investigation. The prospect of being a suspect scared the hell out of the man. So he "lit a match to his hair". I figured that desperate times required desperate measures and that was the man's way with dealing with stress. Set your hair on fire and dream about grand alliances by the authorities to obstruct justice in the JBR murder investigation while the whole damn world watches. Now years later, information comes forward that may explain the frantic behavior of FW from the beginning and why he would be frantic not to be considered a suspect. But it does not follow that FW was directly involved in the killing of JBR. On the contrary, the logical conclusion would be that he was not directly involved and had no knowledge of killing until after the fact. But it would seem that from day one, he "knew" the why and maybe the who of the killing of JBR. His actions support that conclusion. It appears that the delima FW was in from the beginning was that the exposure of the why (and maybe the who) of the killing of JBR would expose things FW wanted to keep from public view. But the prospect of being throughly investigated as a suspect would also expose things that FW wanted to keep from public view. So it appears that FW had to see that the focus of the investigation stayed on the Ramseys at all cost, and that he position himself to keep the investigation from moving to him and whatever it was he had to hide. And White had the good fortune of having the ear of an inexperienced, unethical, ego maniac by the name of Steve Thomas. A man who could be easily taken in and mislead by White. Because White is very smart and Thomas was just a dumb cop in over his head in a murder investition. And the dumb cop wanted to solve the case and make an arrest. Thomas was a duck soup for White. IMO, FW is too smart IMO to have had anything to do with the planned killing of JBR and a lame attempt to frame the parents, with his knowledge the baggage he personally was carrying. Just like JR and PR are too smart to have done the stupid things some here maintain they THINK the Ramseys did. So, both the Whites and the Ramsey's have reacted and acted as if they both have something to hide. But neither couple as acted or reacted as if they were involved in the killing of JBR. IMO of course. And to me it is important that important elements of the crime scene seem to relate more closely to claims made against the White side of the equation than it does to the Ramsey side. IMO this problem cannot be solved without introducting the White factor into the equation. People have tried for over three years and have only come up with absurd "answers" that do not pass the laugh test. This is, in my opinion, your finest post to date. This, in particular So, both the Whites and the Ramsey's have reacted and acted as if they both have something to hide. But neither couple as acted or reacted as if they were involved in the killing of JBR. IMO of course. I hate to say it, I really hate to say it, but I'm beginning to open my mind up to a non-parental element in the murder itself, but will qualify this with the feeling that the Ramseys have behaved as if they have SOMETHING to hide. And that something must be almost as bad as murder itself. And the Whites seem to have been behaving the same way. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 38. "Real picky Stormy" Posted by Rascal on 10:43:18 7/22/2000 >That Rascal understands creative writing too, if >not correct spelling. I say, when you publish me for money, I will break out the dictionary. The idea would make a great net site. We could call it "American Spelling Bee" by Real Stormy. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 40. "Rascal" Posted by darby on 11:03:46 7/22/2000 Assuming hypothetically that a close male friend of John Ramsey had in his past been involved in child sexual abuse that included garroting, do you think that the murder of JBR, which included sexual assault and garroting (plus a flimsy, rambling "cover" letter) was orchestrated by a victim of the Ramsey friend, and this was done to frame the friend? The hope would have been that police might have zeroed in on the friend after digging into his background and discovering complaints of identical abuse as that done to JBR. Is this possibly what you are alluding to? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 41. "Darby" Posted by Rascal on 12:14:25 7/22/2000 I don't see the RN as flimsy or rambling. It is solid perp constructed expression of control, purpose, and intent. I see the White connection as info transfered by MW to creative intelligent perp. I say begin as a person in control center and work out to multi-directional and multi-dimensional construction of crime. You will need to give yourself three (3) years of developement time, as the perp took to develop. The perp's directional arrows point to many persons. The White's were and are a perfect people to point too. MW, tells us clearly this fact in her statements. I believe MW when she say's she has been telling the same story for 10 years in Los Osos. The Whites were IMO a central part of her story always. The White info was one such constructed arrow pointing. The greatest use of this point was/is the White secrecy. The perp could take that to the bank. IMO IMO The investigators have spent all their time and money looking where the perp pointed them too. The time is coming to look back at the center point, the perp. I do include here that the perp's have been right under "the Boulder city Dick's noses" all along. The two "Dicks' I mean are Thomas and Arndt. These two know the perp's, but it is unknown to them. IMO DA Hunter understands there are-unexplained concerns/evidence-in this case and it has to be cleared up. I agree. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 42. "Who" Posted by darby on 12:18:20 7/22/2000 is the perp, IYO, Rascal? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 59. "I don't know who." Posted by Rascal on 22:09:02 7/22/2000 I have a suspicious person who may or may not be a participate or the perp. It may be nothing more then 'coincidence'. The BPD and ultimately the DA will decide who gets charged with the crime. The perp will be that person, maybe. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 43. "Love the book title, Rascal" Posted by Real Stormy on 12:22:59 7/22/2000 What's your scam? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 44. "Very Entertaining Fiction...." Posted by Voyager on 12:57:10 7/22/2000 Rascal. Perhaps the RST will support having the movie version produced as well. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 45. "background noise" Posted by mary99 on 14:58:59 7/22/2000 Rascal, lake, holly and darby: Q: Why are the most brilliant posts now being answered with jibes and sarcasm? A: Because they do not want us to understand each other. If we understand each other, we will find the answer. Thank you, peanut gallery. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 46. "You're Welcome, Mary99" Posted by Real Stormy on 15:06:58 7/22/2000 Any time. Has it ever occured to you that maybe MW is the killer? Hey, she knows the modus operandi, she knows witnesses--something to think about. What if it wasn't her mother who was present at the Christmas party, but MW herself? What if she just said it was her mother in order to deflect suspicion? What if the cops were closing in on her and she made a desperate move by claiming she was abused? What if she and Fleet White were secret lovers? What if they set this up together?What if she and John Ramsey were secret lovers and they killed JB in order to get rid of Patsy?What if she and Patsy were secret lovers and they set this up to get rid of John? What if she and Pricilla were secret lovers and they set this up to get rid of Fleet? Anyone can play the "what if" game, but it doesn't make it true. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 47. "The moon IS full!" Posted by Seashell on 16:11:53 7/22/2000 You're all under citizen's arrest! I love weekend humor. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 48. "Real Stormy" Posted by v_p on 16:15:40 7/22/2000 Wasn't Shannon Tweed in that?? :-) V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 49. "some peanuts.." Posted by Dianne E. on 18:16:41 7/22/2000 ..from the peanut gallery. I guess there will be NO lengthy posts other than court records can fool one's sense of perception about a crime? MW has made some pretty WILD accusations, increased her number of attacks by Boykin to the max. And because she has told the same story for the last ten years that makes it true? Somehow the name Rascal has a "Batman" ring to it. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL Dianne E. ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 58. "DianneE, I didn't say true." Posted by Rascal on 22:00:02 7/22/2000 I said transfer of info to the Perp over a period of 10 or more years. MW believes it to be true, and that decision is her choice. IMO [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 52. "Dianne E." Posted by LurkerXIV on 20:08:35 7/22/2000 Batman...lake...Pachaly....Martin...JT Colfax.... Take all the weirdest posters, roll them up into one, and you have--Ta Dah!--RASCAL. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 64. "I'm King of the weirdos'" Posted by Rascal on 22:30:55 7/22/2000 >Batman...lake...Pachaly....Martin...JT Colfax.... >Take all the weirdest posters, roll them >up into one, and you have--Ta >Dah!--RASCAL. THANK YOU VERY MUCH. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 50. "v_p" Posted by Real Stormy on 18:57:41 7/22/2000 I don't think so, but "what if" Shannon Tweed was in that? You may be on to something! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 53. "Guess What?" Posted by Real Stormy on 20:27:32 7/22/2000 I have a dog named Rascal--no jive. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 54. "Uh Oh" Posted by v_p on 20:36:01 7/22/2000 What if Rascal, (the dog), did it?? Where was he/she on December 25, 1996? Check under your bed for a chewed up boot. Hmmmm :) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 56. "Ok, Rascal" Posted by lake on 21:43:53 7/22/2000 But is your "suspect" known Alesia? You have already given her ID away when you say she attended highschool in Boulder Co. the 92-93 school year and is wearing a large heart in her school picture. You have also said she was born 10/11/76. You think that Arndt's neice was one of her friends in HS and that Thomas knew of her through his Narc Squad work. And why would MW be upset about the Rex Allen killings unless Eric is aka as Rex Allen? Sure, maybe she would be upset about the disappearance of young women in the area, but not necessarily the arrest of Rex Allen for murder or one or two of them. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 65. "Stop mis-quotes please lake" Posted by Rascal on 23:47:35 7/22/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 23:47:35, 7/22/2000 >But is your "suspect" known Alesia? >You have already given her ID >away when you say she attended >highschool in Boulder Co. the 92-93 >school year and is wearing a >large heart in her school picture. > You have also said she >was born 10/11/76. You think >that Arndt's neice was one of >her friends in HS and that >Thomas knew of her through his >Narc Squad work. I never said Arndt's niece did I? I said Thomas through a Boulder County Construction firm. I also question any drug police work by Thomas involving Kali2. I said Boulder County as per High School. And you can verify her idenity through public records. >And why would MW be upset about >the Rex Allen killings unless Eric >is aka as Rex Allen? Sure, >maybe she would be upset about >the disappearance of young women in >the area, but not necessarily the >arrest of Rex Allen for murder >or one or two of them. I said "Rex Allen xxxxx". It has nothing to do directly with the villain Rex Allen xxxxx as a person. > [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 57. "Last name Lake." Posted by Rascal on 21:56:40 7/22/2000 People make unfair judgements and assumptions on last names. In small Counties and cities some citizens have a poor outlook and reception if your last name is the same as a villain. MW doesn't need the stress. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 55. "LurkerIV.." Posted by Dianne E. on 21:55:55 7/22/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 21:55:55, 7/22/2000 forgot the X, LurkerXIV..yes, and this one is a swamp original. Too bad they don't take this crazed conversation back to the hole that Rascal crawled out of. Q Why are the most brilliant posts now being ignored with jibes and sarcasm. A. If these are brilliant thoughts rather than hostile attacks on FW and family, give me my kool-aid. A simple question still goes unanswered, HOW on earth do people continue to support this story by this obviously disturbed individual? I feel quite sad for FW and his family. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 60. "God forbid" Posted by Morgan on 22:19:54 7/22/2000 FW should be disturbed from sitting on his ass all day writing letters. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 63. "Morgan.." Posted by Dianne E. on 22:29:04 7/22/2000 ..have you considered a rabies shot? You seem to foam at the mouth over FW. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL Dianne E. ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 66. "Forum Mythology 101 " Posted by mary99 on 23:11:16 7/22/2000 Rascal, does the description fit the lady in question? The Mother/Destroyer Archetype is most often exemplified by the Hindu goddess Kali, who is a bringer of life, mother to her followers, and the goddess of death and blood sacrifice [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 68. "Well, Rascal" Posted by lake on 00:41:46 7/23/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 00:41:46, 7/23/2000 You are free to persue your MW2. But for my money, for any theory of this crime to pass the laugh test it must deal objecively and realistically with the actions and reactions of both the Whites and the Ramseys over the more than 3 1/2 years period. And MW2 just does not do that. The Ramseys did not back away from the police after being connected to the crime with good evidence, they backed away within hours of the body of JBR being brought up from the basement, before anyone knew what the evidence would show. And FW did not start acting like a "wild man" after a couple or weeks or months, FW's actions (and those of his wife) were suspicious from day one. And they just got stranger and more absurd with the passing of time. Of course the Whites did quiet down a bit after they saw they were not going to get a special presecutor and FW had his butt was hauled before the GJ. I suspose it was at that point that the authorities found out that he was just jerking the chain of Steve Thomas with his suggestions of having information that he would only give up in a trial of a Ramsey. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 67. "Mother/Destroyer=Rage inside? Yes" Posted by Rascal on 00:20:38 7/23/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 00:20:38, 7/23/2000 >Rascal, does the description fit the lady >in question?The Mother/Destroyer Archetype is most >often exemplified by the Hindu goddess >Kali, who is a bringer of >life, mother to her followers, and >the goddess of death and blood >sacrifice >I didn't choose the Kali2 name for my suspicious female person. I would say it may be true. Kali2's time-line yet complete is between SLO & Boulder. The unsolved murders in both cities and around Universities is suspect. Kali2's personal location during these deaths seems to have her at those cities during the crimes accurance. Maybe coincidence. Yes on Kali2 potential. IMO To see her picture would not suggest such a thing. To meet her on the street would not suggest. To talk to her on the phone would not suggest. To read her letters would not suggest. To drink a little alcohol with her and see her go into a unpentrable "Trance" like state before your eyes, this one did suggest to me. I found it dark and disturbing. IMO Something is wrong with Kali2. The alcohol element is the key to the wrongs. > > [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 69. "John Ramsey" Posted by lake on 00:59:48 7/23/2000 Would have the public believe that the was totally confused and out of his mind on 12/26/96. I don't buy that. He may have been confused but he was not out of his mind. Now FW seemed to be out of his mind. John Ramsey was a calming presence and FW was coming apart at the seams. By the time they got to Atlanta, FW was a basket case. JR acted like he wanted to find out the who and why independent of the BPD if he could, and FW wanted JR and PR to cooperate with the BPD so the whole thing would just go away. So that he would not be investigated, I suspose. After all, PW is said to have told DP that the Ramseys did not need lawyers because she knew things that nobody else knew. Odd, Odd, Odd. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 70. "lake" Posted by mary99 on 01:46:08 7/23/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 01:46:08, 7/23/2000 Are you saying you think JR knew this would happen but FW was caught by surprise? If FW had something to do with the 'story' of the crime, but not the crime itself, his frantic words and actions make sense. If he was involved in the killing along with Ramsey, it explains their strong disagreement over the best course of action. But if FW knew of the 'story' behind the crime, and JR didn't, the disagreement also makes sense. Ramsey, OTOH, is first calm, then distraught. We presume he went to the cellar and found the body right before he became distraught. Still doesn't explain why he was in control of himself before that. Or why he didn't react when the time for the phone call passed. Rascal, do you think Ms. Kali2 wrote the ransom note? Have you seen her handwriting, and is it similar? How well did she do in school? What was/would have been her best subject, just take a guess if you don't know. Thanks. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 75. "Kali2's letters" Posted by Rascal on 08:23:04 7/23/2000 > > > > NOTE: >This message was last edited 01:46:08, >7/23/2000 > > > Are you saying >you think JR knew this would >happen but FW was caught by >surprise? >If FW had something to do with >the 'story' of the crime, but >not the crime itself, his frantic >words and actions make sense. If >he was involved in the killing >along with Ramsey, it explains their >strong disagreement over the best course >of action. >But if FW knew of the 'story' >behind the crime, and JR didn't, >the disagreement also makes sense. >Ramsey, OTOH, is first calm, then distraught. >We presume he went to the >cellar and found the body right >before he became distraught. >Still doesn't explain why he was in >control of himself before that. Or >why he didn't react when the >time for the phone call passed. > >Rascal, do you think Ms. Kali2 wrote >the ransom note? I have two letters of mixed longhand and print. They are casual personal letters. No direct "telling" or "demands" of Imperial sentences. I do think it possible that kali2 could have did the printing. The composition sounds like at times her sentence structure. And some word choice is simular. But other words and sentence structure is not simular. I question that another person is part of composition. A person with a stronger direct tone and Imperial commanding style voice. Maybe a young military male wana-be. The scribbles, x's, $$$$, zeros, F's, some nurmerals. Kali2 in summer 1997 took at Cuesta College a writing class. Letter one is a mixed print-longhand versus 2nd. letter is improved construction and longhand except for address. Have you seen >her handwriting, and is it similar? Yes >How well did she do in >school? I believe Kali2 did not graduate. I also think she attended three (3) different high schools. What was/would have been her >best subject, just take a guess >if you don't know. I would guess creative art class. Something to do with her hands. >Thanks. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 71. "M99" Posted by lake on 02:32:10 7/23/2000 I agree with ST on one thing. And that is that JR knew nothing before the 911 call was made. JR seems to be a very smart man but a real bad lier. JR knew FW for about two years. They were brought together by their kids and their wives. JR was growing an international business with plans of buying AG back when JBR was murdered. I doubt JR had much time to find out anything at all about FW except that they both liked sailing. Any attempt to tie JR to FW in any of this does not pass the laugh test. FW seems to have a questionable past but JR's personal past is just average. The BPD and the media investigation proved that. And smart people who are involved in a murder are smart enough to not disagree and head off in opposite directions on what to do after the police are called. And smart people who are connected in a crime do not act in such a way as to cast police suspicion one on the other. Not unless they both want to be charged with the crime. Most may not want to see it, but in the beginning JR acted confused with a lot of questiions, FW acted like he might have something to hid right out of the box. And it looks like he did. FW bacame more of an inigma to the pulbic, and JR became so clean that even Steve Thomas wants to give him a pass. The crime scene points toward the White influence if MW can be believed. And people that are involved in generational child sexual abuse are not going to share that with thier new "best friends" that they have only known a short time. I would suspect that the Whites may have had two totally different sets of people that they associated with. And one set knew absolutely nothing about the other set. One needs multiple houses in different locations for that to happen. And the Whites seemed to have no shortage of houses from Colorado to California. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 72. "Two sets of friends" Posted by mary99 on 02:49:38 7/23/2000 Funny you should bring that up. The Ramseys also had at least 'two sets of friends'. This has been commented on several times. I don't believe that baloney about FW and JR meeting in Boulder, if sailing was what they had in common. Only boats in Boulder are in bathtubs. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 73. "Fleet and the Grand Jury has" Posted by Holly on 05:16:23 7/23/2000 always bothered me. JR recalled that rather than comforting him on 12/26, White was busy taking notes. Months later White wrote his 14 page mother of all position papers, complaining about Hunter. He complained about a Colorado House Bill that might lead to a report if a Grand Jury failed to indict. He yammered about how Hunter was stalling so that the House Bill would be in effect. White saw that as a political maneuver that would somehow compromise justice. He balked at going before the Grand Jury. He wanted his previous statements, since his "notes" were apparently incomplete. He complained loudly, bullied and threatened and drove BPD and the DA nuts. Finally Hofstrom was sent to the Whites to knock some sense into them. Still they whined. Beckner became so frustrated that he wanted to charge and jail White with obstruction of justice. The Whites' behavior was confusing and perplexing to everyone ,except Steve Thomas, who had to handle them like a skittish pair of "thoroughbreds". Why would a supposed credible couple, self described as the star witnesses, behave like a couple of horses' asses? What was behind it all? White pissed and moaned about bringing in a special prosecutor. When Kane was imported from Pennsylvania, White still complained. Wasn't Kane "special" enough? Or was White troubled by Kane's Colorado legal roots? Or something else? Finally White decided to appear. No one is sure how this was accomplished. No report was ever issued. Maybe the MW allegations explain some of this odd behavior. Maybe not. At any rate, White has been a less than impressive champion of justice. And there has to be an underlying reason. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 74. "v_p" Posted by Real Stormy on 08:17:38 7/23/2000 Now that you mention it, I'm not sure where my Rascal was on Christmas of '96. I do recall he was heavily involved with a Spitz down the street at the time and I was quite concerned about their morals. As it happened, I was right. The Spitz presented us with 7 puppies. They have both been,shall we say, "surgically altered" since that time. DianneE--Please make it clear which Rascal you are referring to. My Rascal has had his Rabies shots. Can't speak for the other one. Wonder if he has been surgically altered. A lobotomy, perhaps? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 77. "sources" Posted by Matt on 10:29:08 7/23/2000 Holly,you said: "White pissed and moaned about bringing in a special prosecutor. When Kane was imported from Pennsylvania, White still complained. Wasn't Kane "special" enough?" If you don't mind, I'd like the article source for this conversation with Fleet White where he supposedly "pissed and moaned about Kane". I'd simply like to read the article myself that's all. By all that I have read Kane was not considered a "special prosecutor" in the sense I have been explained one would be. He was considered a Grand Jury Specialist. they are not one in the same, by definition, to me. Because he was brought in from the outside, and because he was a prosecutor, one could argue that he was a "special prosecutor", but he was not a "special prosecutor" by the definition as I was given. Whatever... Nevertheless I believe I understand what Mr White's point likely is (but need your article source before being sure) Here is an excerpt from White's letter: On Dec. 18, 1997, we met with Gov. Roy Romer to urge that he intervene immediately to remove the Boulder County District Attorney from any involvement in the case and appoint an independent special prosecutor. Here, clearly, Mr White is asking that Hunter be removed and a special prosecutor be appointed. That to me means replace Hunter with an outside prosecutor. And as we all know that did not happen. Therefore, I will make the leap that the interview with Mr White---from which you draw your point from---by saying that Mr White is "pissing and moaning over Kane" because Hunter was not replaced as he requested in his letter. That was a damn good reason to piss and moan actually. Hunter not being replaced was the death of this case. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 79. "Hi Matt." Posted by Holly on 14:12:29 7/23/2000 It's all throughout Steve Thomas's book. Also, I know a former poster who talked to White about Kane being a "good guy". And why not cooperate? One reason White hates Hunter is that he thought (erroneously) that Hunter gave the ENQUIRER Daphne's pic. The main reason is that Huner refused to completely eliminate White. He would only go so far as to say eliminated, as of "the current stage of the investigation". [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 76. "Holly" Posted by Gemini on 10:23:49 7/23/2000 Your post #73 is very good. It nails many of the problems I, also, have with the Whites. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 78. "Well, Mary" Posted by lake on 13:52:32 7/23/2000 Many people who have young children and move from one state to another because of a job have two sets of friends. One job related, and one related to the kids relationships with other kids. So it is not odd that the Ramseys would have two sets of friends. But FW did not have a job that anybody wants to talk about. But he apparently does have access to a lot of houses in a lot of different locations. And you could likely name the Ramseys two sets of friends. Take a shot at naming the Whites two sets of friends. MW says he was still pretty tight with Gwen Boykin, but that is about as far as I can go with the other set of FW friends. And as for the relationship between FW and JR. It is apparent that kids and wives brought them together. Not sailing. But both had lived in areas of the country where sailing was popular and JR had the boat and the money to pursue the hobby from Colorado. Nothing odd about that at all. But certainly not your typical Colorado ski hound or save the redwood mother earth type of guy. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 82. "Four Mysterious Slayings" Posted by Rascal on 15:22:17 7/23/2000 Los Angeles Times Regional News B-11 July 23, 2000 DETAILS OF FOUR MYSTERIOUS SLAYINGS EMERGE. A early morning intruder knifes to death the Flores father and three (3) children. The killer leaves behind a flashlight in the house and a knife outside the house. The house was known to be unlocked. I thought you might want to know. Rascal [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 81. "The Real Thing???" Posted by shadow on 15:19:12 7/23/2000 Posting these amazing theories and opinions can be like masterbation - the longer you do it the more real it becomes!! shadow [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 80. "Honorable Fleet White" Posted by straykat2 on 15:13:20 7/23/2000 Fleet White passionately spoke out for Justice for JonBenet by publically requesting that the incompetent and misguided DA of Boulder, Alex Hunter, be removed from the case. In his letter to the newspaper, Fleet White eloquently stated the problems with the legal/political conflicts in this case. I appreciate Fleet White's efforts to bring Justice For JonBonet. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 83. "Injustice In Colorado" Posted by straykat2 on 15:23:43 7/23/2000 If Fleet White had something to hide, he would have stayed in the background and shut-up. Instead, he courageously put himself on the line by speaking up about the injustices occuring within the law enforcement community of Colorado. Naturally those who are adversely affected by White's public dissatisfation of the legal community have tried to put a negative spin on his efforts. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 85. "Maybe not" Posted by lake on 16:47:42 7/23/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 16:47:42, 7/23/2000 FW had been in Boulder for two years. Said he was retired and only in is early 40's. Nobody seemed to know much of anything of substance about his past. If he had something in his past or present that he wanted to stay buried, I doubt that he would want to be investigated in a murder case. And JR made it clear that the case was going to be investigatied when he hired top notch lawyers and they hired private detectives. Maybe the BPD would not investigate him if he played the role of a key witness and pretened to have an ace up his sleeve, but the investigators the Ramsey's lawyers hired sure as hell would. Maybe the man was caught in a swinging door. He was going to get hit if the head no matter which way he went unless he could stop the swinging door with an arrest of a Ramsey for something. And the sooner, the better. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 86. "Hmmmmm" Posted by freebird on 17:02:34 7/23/2000 4 years later and truck loads of money spent and this is ALL that the investigators turned up? That tells me pleanty they either couldn't find the dirt on FW or they (the Ramseys) are dirty with him and don't want the exposure. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 87. "Oh" Posted by lake on 17:07:18 7/23/2000 I doubt you have heard all the dirt of FW yet. They just put a teaser out. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 88. "Oh Pleazzzzzz" Posted by freebird on 18:11:42 7/23/2000 I figured out how to use a computer to get here at least give me credit for a brain cell or two. The day I believe the Ramseys would sit on dirt of another person when they can divert attention away from themselves is the day I spend $50 dollars to post that Shirley temple is a possible suspect. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 84. "Eloquent? hardly, IMO" Posted by mary99 on 17:23:07 7/23/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 17:23:07, 7/23/2000 Fleet White's letters are many things, but the 'eloquent' tag doesn't fit seeing as how the letters are mega-long and tiresome to read. If you wish, read one for yourself. More than one is cruel and unusual punshment. Fleet and Priscilla White's letter to the People of Colorado - August 17th, 1998 To the people of Colorado: On August 12, 1998, Boulder District Attorney Alex Hunter announced that he would be presenting the JonBenet Ramsey murder case to a Boulder grand jury at the expense of the State of Colorado. >>>Do you think Hunter should pay for it himself? Colorado Grand Jury law requires that both jurors and witnesses take an oath of secrecy regarding grand jury proceedings and testimony. In anticipation of receiving a subpoena to appear before that grand jury, we wish at this time to address matters concerning the investigation which we feel are of great importance to the people of Colorado and the Boulder community. After JonBenet Ramsey was killed in Boulder nearly twenty months ago, her parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, immediately hired prominent Democrat criminal defense attorneys with the law firm of Haddon, Morgan and Foreman. This firm and its partners have close professional, political and personal ties to prosecutors, the Denver and Boulder legal and judicial communities, state legislators, and high-ranking members of Colorado government, including Governor Roy Romer. The investigation of her death has since been characterized by confusion and delays. The district attorney and Ramsey defense attorneys started early in the investigation to condition the public to believe that these delays and the lack of a prosecution have resulted almost entirely from initial police bungling of the case and the noncooperation of witnesses. This has continued to this day. Advising the district attorney since the early days of the investigation have been Denver metropolitan area district attorneys Bob Grant (Adams County), Bill Ritter (Denver County), Jim Peters (18th Judicial District), and Dave Thomas (1st Judicial District). >>>How can so many be so wrong, FW? Or is it because your objective is not the same as their objective? Recently, Boulder police detective Steve Thomas, an investigator on the JonBenet Ramsey murder case, left the department in disgust. In his August 6 letter of resignation, he publicly accused the district attorney of obstructing the police investigation and allowing politics to "trump" justice. He asked that a special prosecutor be brought in to handle the case. >>>Did you help Thomas ghostwrite it, Fleet? If Romer was a crony (according to you) of Haddon and Co., how is going outside the influence sphere wrong? Was Kane too independant for you? We knew JonBenet and her parents very well and have been closely involved in the investigation as witnesses. During the past year, we have also come to know and respect Mr. Thomas and were saddened and discouraged by his departure from the investigation. We share Mr. Thomas' view regarding the district attorney and his contention that overwhelming pressure brought to bear on the district attorney and police leadership from various quarters has thwarted the investigation and delayed justice in the case. While it is unlikely that the district attorney has been corrupted by Ramsey defense attorneys, it is certain that the district attorney and his prosecutors have been greatly influenced by their metro area district attorney advisers and by defense attorneys' chummy persuasiveness and threats of reprisals for anyone daring to jeopardize the civil rights of their victim clients. Indeed, the district attorney and the Ramsey attorneys have simultaneously rebuked the police for "focusing" their investigation on the Ramseys when in fact police were simply following evidence. During the course of the investigation, the district attorney has used inexplicable methods including the recruitment of magazine writers and tabloids to leak information concerning the case and to needle witnesses, "suspects", and police detectives. He has provided evidence to Ramsey defense attorneys at their request but denied reasonable requests by witnesses for their own statements to police. He has thoroughly alienated police detectives and key witnesses (like FW)whose cooperation is vital to the investigation and prosecution. His public statements regarding the investigation have been erratic, evasive, and misleading. They have also been profoundly damaging to the case. Understandably, public confidence in the district attorney's handling of the investigation was low even before Mr. Thomas' letter. Notwithstanding what the public has been led to believe, Boulder police leadership and detectives have been under the effective control of the district attorney and his advisers since the early days of the investigation. In December, 1997, we met with Governor Romer to request that the state intervene and appoint an independent special prosecutor to take over the investigation and prosecution of the case. Citing the growing conflict between police and prosecutors and the delay of any progress in the investigation, we expressed our view that Boulder authorities were incapable of seeking justice. We also pointed out specific circumstances which we felt could inhibit or restrict the Governor's ability to intervene. In early January, 1998, we were advised that he had decided against intervention on the advice of Boulder Police Chief Tom Koby. Chief Koby, who has since left the department, had told Governor Romer that the investigation was incomplete and therefore had not been given to the district attorney for prosecution. In short, there had been no failure to prosecute and thus no basis for the state's intervention. Upon learning of his decision, we wrote a letter published January 16, 1998 in the Boulder Daily Camera expressing our views and requesting that Governor Romer reconsider his decision. Recently, Governor Romer publicly stated that he did not recall the letter. We hope that this letter will make a stronger impression. Since our meeting with Governor Romer eight months ago, the public has been shown the forced reconciliation of demoralized police detectives with the district attorney and his prosecutors and a sequence of odd and highly publicized milestones in the case. In March, 1998, police Chief Koby and lead investigator Mark Beckner (later to be appointed police chief), made an unusual public appeal to the district attorney for a grand jury investigation on the pro bono advice of three prominent Denver attorneys. In response, the district attorney requested a complete presentation by police of evidence. This presentation occurred over two days in early June, 1998, and was witnessed by prosecutors, representatives of the State Attorney General's office, prominent forensic scientists, and advisers of the district attorney and the police department. The public was then told that the investigation had been finally transferred to the district attorney from the police department and that the district attorney would now require some indeterminate length of time to review the case prior to making a decision concerning the police request for a grand jury investigation. Upon leaving the presentation, both Alex Hunter and Mark Beckner made inappropriate but tantalizing comments designed to give the public hope that the case may yet be "solved". >>>Where is Andrew Hodges when you need him? They warned, however, that there was still a lot of work to do and that additional evidence was needed. Then, in late June, 1998, the public was once again brought in on a major development in the case. The Ramseys were interviewed by representatives of the district attorney in a carefully orchestrated demonstration of their willingness to cooperate in the investigation. Police detectives were no longer involved. >>>FW: There goes my source of 'inside info'. Most developments in the case brought to the public's attention throughout 1997 should be regarded as well-publicized but clumsy attempts by the district attorney and police leadership to look busy, follow long "task lists", and clean up investigative files while the district attorney killed time and spread-out responsibility for the case. On the other hand, "advances" in the case since early this year have been carefully planned to condition the public for a grand jury investigation. The district attorney's past indecision and the need for the police to ask him for a grand jury investigation were deliberate attempts to mislead the public. If based on nothing other than the district attorney's repeated public statements and leaks characterizing the case as "not prosecutable", there can be little doubt that, absent a confession, the people running the investigation had long ago decided against filing charges in the case. Instead, they manipulated public opinion to favor the use of the grand jury. There is compelling evidence, however, that their motivation for presenting the case to a grand jury has little or nothing to do with obtaining new evidence, grilling "reluctant witnesses"(like FW) and everything to do with sealing away facts, circumstances and evidence gathered in the investigation in a grand jury transcript. It is our firm belief that the district attorney and others intend to use the grand jury and its secrecy in an attempt to protect their careers and also serve the conflicting interests of powerful, influential, and threatening people who have something to hide or protect or who simply don't want to be publicly linked to a dreadful murder investigation. >>>Who might the powerful and influential be in particular, FW? Also weighing on the district attorney has been the matter of preserving and protecting the now "cooperative" and forthcoming Ramseys' rights as victims. End of Episode I Much, much more to follow * * * [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 89. "FW & PW's Letter Is" Posted by Abby on 19:50:39 7/23/2000 Long winded just like the ransom note. Makes me wonder?????????? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 90. "I think" Posted by v_p on 20:06:40 7/23/2000 FW & PW had a ghost writer...Ginja??? :) V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 91. "John is wordy too..." Posted by Nandee on 20:26:54 7/23/2000 John Ramsey Letter John Ramsey released this letter after Detective Lou Smit resigned from the case because he felt the investigation concentrated only on the Ramseys. Smit stated in his letter that he is convinced the Ramseys are not guilty and that "a very dangerous killer is still out there." As you know, our family has not often spoken publicly in the past because so much of what surrounds our tragedy is used to entertain for profit. For my family, the loss of JonBenet was a crushing loss that left us crying out, "Why did this happen to such a precious child? Why did this happen to a good family?" JonBenet's murder has inflicted the worst pain imaginable on my family, and it is simply cruel to exploit her death for profit, as much of the media has, so we have been unwilling to provide fodder for their talk shows. We do feel compelled to speak out at this time as a result of Detective Lou Smit's resignation after 16 months of working to find the killer of our daughter and sister JonBenet. While we are grateful for Detective Smit's work to find JonBenet's killer, we are discouraged to lose his official participation in this case. Detective Smit is the only experienced homicide detective who has ever been assigned long-term to find the killer of JonBenet. Our biggest concern as a family has always been that the Boulder Police Department has little experience or training in homicide cases. They had decided they had solved this case on the very first day by reaching the incredible conclusion that because the parents were in the house, they must have done it. Furthermore, the fact that we obtained lawyers to protect ourselves against their abuse of our rights was conclusive to them of our guilt. The law in the hands of the unskilled and the unknowing is a terrifying thing. Detective Smit was an exception, but his help was not welcomed by the police. We have always expressed our eagerness to participate fully in a competent investigation of this horrible crime, but I have been unwilling to submit my family to what seems to be little more than a lynch mob hiding behind the authority of police badges. It is not true that you can buy justice in this country, but sadly, it does take money to protect your rights against abuse of the law by those charged with its application. My experience has made me wonder how many innocent victims of police misconduct there are who were not able or did not know how to protect their basic rights as citizens. Our fight with the Boulder police started when they refused to release JonBenet's body to us for the burial until we complied with their demands. It has continued ever since. To Governor Romer, I would say we were encouraged that you committed additional resources to this case but were disappointed that you stopped short by only assigning more attorneys and not the needed qualified investigators. We ask you for only one thing as parents of a precious child who was murdered in your state, and that is for you to additionally commit significant, qualified investigative resources on a long-term basis if necessary to solve this case. Don't do this for us because no amount of revenge can bring an easing of our pain. Don't do this only for JonBenet because her future has been lost. But do it for the child this killer will prey upon tomorrow. No child should suffer as I'm afraid JonBenet suffered and no family should suffer as mine has. It will happen again if this killer is not caught. And please don't just listen and react to those who scream the loudest. Commit qualified investigative resources in addition to the prosecutors you have committed to find this killer. We have and will continue to participate fully in a competentinvestigation. We stated in writing to the Boulder district attorney many months ago that we had no confidence in the leadership of this investigation under the Boulder police but that every member of our family would be willing to meet with the district attorney's investigators, anywhere, anytime, for as long as they want with no questions left unanswered and no information left unprovided. We have done this, and that commitment still stands. There can be no one who wants to find the killer of JonBenet as much as my family does. To the fanatic fringe who surround this case, making demands, creating sensationalism and calling for officials' heads, I say to you whether you are driven by tabloid money or simply ignorance, you are being cruel and are compromising progress in this case. A child's life has been taken, and the important thing now is that we prevent this from happening again. To the Boulder police, I would say we have known that the moment you responded to our cry for help that you began to voice the single theory and Patsy or I or my 9-year-old son Burke must have committed this horrible crime. The killer could never have guessed that he or she would be so lucky as to have the resulting investigation conducted by such closed-minded police. We don't fault you for initially including us under your "umbrella of suspicion," but we will forever hold you accountable for following a theory rather than the evidence. You have wasted almost two years trying to prove your original theory. Meanwhile, my family knows a vicious child killer still walks your streets. To the killer, I would say that we can and will find you. There is a $100,000 reward for your arrest that still stands. You have the opportunity to do one good thing in your life by turning yourself in to the authorities and confessing. We have been told that the authorities have your DNA. They will know it is you. If you surrender and are proven to be the killer, the $100,000 will be paid to anyone you choose. Surely you have a mother or spouse or child or friend to whom this money would be significant. Help them and help yourself. You know you will kill again, so do this one good thing in your life. Turn yourself in and ask for God's forgiveness. Your fellow man will be grateful and our family will be grateful. Finally, to Detective Smit, we would like to say thank you for your dedication and commitment to finding the killer of our daughter, and we are thankful for your honesty and candor and what we know is your commitment to the truth. September 29,1998 [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 93. "Please" Posted by lake on 22:02:29 7/23/2000 Don't post the Steve Thomas resignation letter or one of Ginja's longer posts. More than two suspects would be just to confusing. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 92. "FW AND JR LETTERS" Posted by short timer on 21:51:24 7/23/2000 Reading both of the letters closely together is a little eerie. The FW faction hates the DA's office and does everything possible to put a cloud of doubt over their every move. The JR faction hates the BPD and does everything possible to put a cloud of doubt over their every move. Have we been duped into watching a carefully choreographed dance for the past 43 months, where both sides cast so much doubt on the part of the other investigative body that justice is never accomplished? Stranger things have happened. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 98. "short timer." Posted by Holly on 11:18:44 7/25/2000 Very smart and motivated people can accomplish alot. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 94. "Lake.." Posted by Dianne E. on 22:33:18 7/23/2000 ..ROFL. I like this Lake:) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL Dianne E. ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 95. "short timer" Posted by Seashell on 23:42:02 7/23/2000 Your post was very perceptive. Both the Whites and the Ramseys have money. If the Whites had the goods on the Ramseys, the Ramseys would be in jail. If the Ramseys had the goods on the Whites, the Whites would be in jail. Tons of money have gone into finding the killers which we know were not strange foreigners or tongue studded blonds. The Whites have maligned the DA. The Ramseys have maligned the BPD. It sounds very possible IMO that they have the goods on one another and money has been spent to cover a lot of rich a**es. JR couldn't wait to have JAR cleared, FW couldn't wait to have himself cleared. In the beginning, everyone thought the crime was sexual/incest - at the very least, sexual. And then the worm turned and JR was eliminated as the note writer and FW was cleared. How cute. It's very possible that within a few short weeks, or even days, FW and JR came up with the game plan that has worked til this day. FW has cast suspicion on JR and JR has cast suspicion on FW. And both cast suspicion on the BPD and DA. And then along comes MW. And JR and FW are totally mute; no letters, no comments, no nothing, except for distractors on the forum. With such damning words against FW SR by MW, why hasn't JR JUMPED on this? Instead of jumping, he went out and took a bogus LD test and made sure he wasn't asked if he wrote the note. He made sure he wasn't asked anything of importance. And FW; why isn't he writing a letter or at least making a statement in defense of his father? And who and why would someone try to pay off MW to keep silent? Was that FW SR. who offered the amount or don't we know. Hush money ALWAYS covers a crime of one kind or another. Are we even absolutely sure she was offered hush money? It's JR's silence on this matter that makes me think that he himself is big time involved or he'd want to clear his GOOD NAME! Hahahahahah! And now the RST is pursuing someone with a stud in her tongue? Puleeze! Does she own a stun gun? Maybe she's really the young man Barnhill saw or maybe she had an operation in Sweden since then. The Ramseys are known liars, so it's pretty simple. They know who killed her. Thanks for posting those 2 letters together. They were an eye opener. Gosh, I'm getting as long-winded as some others whose names I won't divulge. :-) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 96. "Whites,BPD Vs. Ramsey, DA & others." Posted by Rascal on 10:32:54 7/25/2000 The subject should really read Whites & BPD VERSUS Ramseys & DA's office & CBI & Grand Jury & Colorado special Govennors legal team. The Whites and BPD want to have the "police" decide who is to be charged with a crime. The DA & others have disagreed with this idea. The other legal participate's have not come to the same conclusion as did BPD. And so the Ramsey's have not been charged with the crime period. I'm personally working on a unconfirmed possibility that the Whites have a relative who owns a large construction firm in Boulder County. The firm being the pre-case connection between Det. Steve Thomas/carpenter and the Whites. This is where Pricilla's statements of in the know IMO are coming from. The Boulder camps early on begun to organize by previous association and Boulder County political commons. The problem that arises is that Kali2 also has family ties to the firm as an employee. The connection is through IMO the Denverites, the Browns & Coxes. Pricilla Brown/White is the person stepping out and telling the Ramsey's what to do. And Pricilla Brown is the one who gave Patsy Ramsey, the birthday party held at the Denver "Brown Palace Hotel" in 1996. Pricilla is using a police term of don't "lawyer up." Pricilla Brown, Steve Thomas, the Coxes are all in bed together. IMO. The Denver business owners the Browns and Coxes are the ones hiding their dealings and local connections. The Cox's children's names at the White party are hidden. And the Coxes are stated to be from Calif. The Coxes and the Browns are Denverite family members, not the Whites of Calif. The big deception.IMO [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 97. "Wow, Rascal..." Posted by shadow on 11:07:43 7/25/2000 Are you suggesting that the Whites and everyone who associates with them (Browns, Coxes and their children, and ST), except the Ramseys and Stines, were involved in the death of JBR? I readily admit that I'm a little confused with your Boulder investigation... as Lake will confirm, however, I am a little dense (I think Lake likes to use "moron"). shadow [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] ARCHIVE REMOVE