Justice Watch Discussion Board "FLEET'S FAILURE" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... FLEET'S FAILURE, Holly, 07:26:25, 7/26/2000 Holly, Luvsa Mystery, 07:40:58, 7/26/2000, (#1) Newbie alert, freebird, 07:55:04, 7/26/2000, (#2) holly, v_p, 08:13:33, 7/26/2000, (#3) Well, v_p , Holly, 08:31:27, 7/26/2000, (#6) That';s interesting., Holly, 08:26:20, 7/26/2000, (#5) agree to disagree, Greenleaf, 09:13:45, 7/26/2000, (#18) Hmmm.,, Holly, 08:24:01, 7/26/2000, (#4) morals, Luvsa Mystery, 08:51:34, 7/26/2000, (#7) I just wish someone, Holly, 08:56:48, 7/26/2000, (#10) the door, fly, 08:52:58, 7/26/2000, (#9) Yes, fly, Holly, 09:01:54, 7/26/2000, (#13) White's importance, fly, 09:05:43, 7/26/2000, (#15) fly., Holly, 09:08:42, 7/26/2000, (#16) About changing her panties, dawn, 09:00:34, 7/26/2000, (#12) Intimate contact., Holly, 09:05:14, 7/26/2000, (#14) Holly, fly, 09:18:26, 7/26/2000, (#20) I'm hanging up my swatter :-), Holly, 09:24:18, 7/26/2000, (#21) Holly, fly, 09:35:00, 7/26/2000, (#23) looking for an out?, Edie Pratt, 09:26:35, 7/26/2000, (#22) No one is better at the blame game - , Holly, 11:15:24, 7/26/2000, (#33) The importance of being White, Gemini, 09:55:22, 7/26/2000, (#26) PMPT and the door..., DebDeb, 10:02:31, 7/26/2000, (#27) Forum members..., rose, 10:30:09, 7/26/2000, (#29) rose, Chris, 10:32:56, 7/26/2000, (#30) Yes. Pete Peterson., Holly, 10:35:19, 7/26/2000, (#31) Pete Peterson?, Gemini, 10:36:22, 7/26/2000, (#32) PP, Lacey, 11:26:59, 7/26/2000, (#34) You said it all, Holly, 10:12:40, 7/26/2000, (#28) Officer.., rico, 11:35:48, 7/26/2000, (#35) Holly, tx_sunshine, 13:13:53, 7/26/2000, (#36) CopS and the door, Starling, 13:50:42, 7/26/2000, (#37) Starling, Gemini, 14:51:13, 7/26/2000, (#41) Or he never looked, Holly, 16:36:41, 7/26/2000, (#44) aha!, Edie Pratt, 14:09:09, 7/26/2000, (#38) EdieP, Holly, 16:38:56, 7/26/2000, (#45) stinky hinky, Edie Pratt, 17:07:47, 7/26/2000, (#50) Edie pratt, mary99, 14:28:46, 7/26/2000, (#39) right on, Mary99, Edie Pratt, 14:43:31, 7/26/2000, (#40) Maybe, Seeker, 15:33:47, 7/26/2000, (#42) In the POS, the minister who ghosted told, Holly, 16:35:30, 7/26/2000, (#43) why was he strangling Jeff?, Edie Pratt, 16:42:55, 7/26/2000, (#47) EdieP, Holly, 16:50:15, 7/26/2000, (#49) uh, OK, Edie Pratt, 17:43:18, 7/26/2000, (#52) Gosh, v_p, 16:41:13, 7/26/2000, (#46) The Fleet bashing continues, Seeker, 17:23:24, 7/26/2000, (#51) The door, Real Stormy, 16:47:16, 7/26/2000, (#48) Holly, v_p, 19:41:59, 7/26/2000, (#53) Lemme think., Holly, 20:20:22, 7/26/2000, (#54) yeah, v_p, 20:54:54, 7/26/2000, (#55) ................................................................... "FLEET'S FAILURE" Posted by Holly on 07:26:25 7/26/2000 One of the worst things about the Fleet issue is the fact that he has eroded his credibility as a witness for the state. While a couple of cops love him, he is detested by the Chief of Police, Beckner and has few, if any, fans at the DA's office. How did this happen? Fleet White tampered with this case from the minute he arrived at the scene. He claims he searched for JonBenet in the basement, looked in the windowless room but didn't see a thing and can't recall how he left the latch. Fleet says he opened the door, but the police officer couldn't. These will be important issues at trial. Did he ask permission from cops before packing up Burke and sending him to his house, thereby leaving jurors to wonder how much "brainwashing" or suggesting might have occurred before cops tracked Burke down for an interview. Why did he return to the crime scene and tamper with the evidence? What will he say on the stand? "I was hysterical, confused. I was certain cops would overlook something? I didn't hear Arndt give that order." It may not make sense to a jury. And worse, a defense lawyer could imply more sinister motives. If he is ever asked by Ramsey lawyers about his behavior at the Fernie's regarding Patsy, what will he say? "I'm just that kind of guy? I was worried about her mental state? I was hopeful she would confess?" Who knows? But he behaved like a nut and that does not enhance his credibility as a star witness. His behavior in GA was beyond the pale. Even I'm offended and I am not a Ramfan, by far. How will this play in court.? A dozen GA mourners testifying to Fleet's rude and curiously overbearing antics. What will a jury think when one of the GA friends describes Fleet's "strangulation" demo? What will they think when the Roswell cops describe the 911 call from Arndt, claiming Fleet was out of control? When the defense probes Fleet's letter writing agenda, which rang alarms that were often false, what will Fleet say? "I have a right to an opinion. That's how it looked to me at the time. I like to write letters. I love the people of Colorado." What a disaster for the State. When asked about his intimate contact with JonBenet -- changing her panties or wiping her private area, what will a jury hear? Will he respond, "Every guy I know changes little girls' panties and wipes private areas. I'm just a mommy kinda' guy. She needed help and no one else was around. I did it all of the time. JonBenet was my best friend." When he is asked about his reluctance to testify for the Grand Jury, what will be Fleet's excuse? "It was a set-up by Hunter to divert justice. Hunter bribed the jurors. Hunter was in bed with the other lawyers. They weren't interested in a search for the truth. I don't trust Grand Juries. They might have written a report." What will a jury think? A skilled defense attorney could make FW look like a nut. Or worse. At one time White seemed the hero, but it's 3 years later. And the State's star witness has too many issues and an unstable personality. He's a double edged sword for the prosecution - at best. [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "Holly" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 07:40:58 7/26/2000 Where is the evidence that a policeman tried to open the wine celler door and couldn't? And where is the evidence that FW changed and/or wiped JB? I believe it was said that the policeman didn't try the door, because, of course, the perp couldn't be in the room with the door latched from the outside. I thought it was "urban legand" that the police tried the door and couldn't open it. ???? And although someone said something about FW showing up with JB and her soiled panties, doesn't mean the he, himself, changed her and/or wiped her does it? Perhaps you know something I don't, in fact, it's very probable. But -- are you certain of your "facts"? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "Newbie alert" Posted by freebird on 08:00:05 7/26/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 08:00:05, 7/26/2000 Just finished reading PMPT. I read in there that the Whites said or implied that they would not cooperate with this case until AH was out of office.... AH is on his way out real soon, and now this MW pops up with allegations specifically to discredit White. does this not seem hinky? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "holly" Posted by v_p on 08:13:33 7/26/2000 If Beckner and Hunter and all the others there in the BPD and DA's office hate Fleet so much, you'd think they would have spent a little more time on MW's story. They didn't. They dismissed her. IMO, if there were even an inkling of credibility, in their collective minds, FW would be lawyering up as we write. V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "Well, v_p " Posted by Holly on 08:31:27 7/26/2000 I don't think they probed out of a White hatred. I think they probed out of the interest that the dots might connect and the case might be advanced. They didn't connect for BPD or the DA, so this witness was dismissed. Of course, BPD didn't say FW does not participate in a sex ring. They sorta' left it up in the air. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "That';s interesting." Posted by Holly on 08:26:20 7/26/2000 Continue the theory. I'm not exactly sure what you're wondering, fb. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "agree to disagree" Posted by Greenleaf on 09:13:45 7/26/2000 People can (and do) make figures say just about anything. They have an end goal and they set up the figures to fit that goal. I have seen it happen. People can (and do) make statistics say just about anything. I have seen this happen. Posters can (and do) make tid- bits, mixed with facts and rumors, say just about anything. I have seen this happen. I am, in no way, casting desperations against any posters here. Each contribution, even in the form of rumors and innuendos, is usually eagerly read; providing fodder (and sometimes amusement) for us hungry sleuths. Holly's post (above) is well thought out; containing, no doubt, a lot of factual information. Even though I have a different slant on FW, I read, with interest, any thoughtful post, no matter how it differs with my views. We can all agree to disagree. Luv' ya' Holly; keep on trucking, gal. Maybe out tracks will meet someday. Greenleaf [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "Hmmm.," Posted by Holly on 08:24:01 7/26/2000 Anyone else ever hear that an officer tried the door? I think it's in PMPT. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "morals" Posted by Luvsa Mystery on 08:51:34 7/26/2000 I take the "morally empty" comment with a grain of salt, since, of course, morals are subjective. The Pharisees accused Jesus Christ of being possessed by a demon. So much for opinions. I'd suggest asking yourself what the speaker considers moral before you accept their assessment of whether or not another is "moral empty" or not. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. "I just wish someone" Posted by Holly on 08:56:48 7/26/2000 would call Beckner and ask him what he meant. I went to his website but it was gone. Anyone else who has tried to talk to him get's the brush-off. Still luvsa, why not give it a try? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "the door" Posted by fly on 08:52:58 7/26/2000 Holly - Not certain about this, but I believe the early reports were rather confused. Some said an officer had found the door stuck, to which JR said it was recently painted. Another had the officer opening the door. After some time, I think Koby admitted that the officer had actually not tried to open the door (or maybe tried, but couldn't because of the latch) because he had noticed it was latched, and thus, could not have allowed a perp to exit that way. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. "Yes, fly" Posted by Holly on 09:02:29 7/26/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 09:02:29, 7/26/2000 I think the reports do confuse. Not that the PMPT movie is the last word, but the officer pulled and the door wouldn't move. Is that your recollection? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "White's importance" Posted by fly on 09:05:43 7/26/2000 Fleet White's potential contribution to this case has always been: (1)testimony concerning the events of Christmas evening - times, food served, the demeanor of all the Ramseys (2)testimony concerning what occurred early the morning of the 26th - the actions of the Ramseys he observed, the condition of the house, the discovery of the body (3)random information about Ramsey habits, plans, etc. Whether this ever warranted "star" designation is unclear, except possibly for the events of that morning that only he witnessed. Most of the other stuff could be obtained from others. From what I've heard in this case, there's little or nothing that would be a case-breaker or case-maker in this. His unique information would be useful, but not essential, IMO. If he were to be discredited by an unsavory past, that wouldn't necessarily destroy his usefulness concerning events around the murder, unless, of course, he could be shown to be not just unsavory, but also a strong suspect in the murder. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "fly." Posted by Holly on 09:08:42 7/26/2000 That's hopeful. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 12. "About changing her panties" Posted by dawn on 09:03:23 7/26/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 09:03:23, 7/26/2000 I don't see anything sinister in this at all, although I am not comfortable with the idea. I believe FW was just being a responsible caretaker when she was at his house. She had an accident and FW cleaned her up. That is how responsible adults take care of children. Ditto for helping her on the toilet. It is John and Patsy's fault that JB had still not been properly toilet trained by the age of six. I think that if FW had taken the opportunity at that time to molest her, he never would have mentioned it. I remember there was a man a few years ago who was taking care of a child who had a bout of diarrhea. He cleaned her up and put fresh underwear on her. That is the responsible thing to do in that situation. I can't imagine an adult standing by and doing nothing and leaving a child in that condition. But there were people who were appalled that he helped her and wanted him to be charged with molesting her since he "touched her private parts." He cleaned her up. There was nothing sexual about the encounter at all - just a responsible adult taking care of a child. About the door, it is my understanding that because French was looking for possible exits the kidnapper may have used, he did not check that room since he would have been unable to latch the door behind him. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 14. "Intimate contact." Posted by Holly on 09:05:14 7/26/2000 My only point is that I fear that a clever defense attorney will make the contact, assuming it truly IS innocent, into something sinister. At least enought to make a juror wonder... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 20. "Holly" Posted by fly on 09:18:26 7/26/2000 Hopeful, but realistic, I think. What the Ramseys did or did not do that morning could contribute something to the case, but what have we heard that is truly indicative of guilt, without being at least as likely to have an innocent origin? Of that, to what was only Fleet White privvy? JR yelling before turning on the light in the little room sounds suspicious, and might be something to which only Fleet could testify, but I'd say it's not a very strong point - too open to error or alternate explanations. The critical issues are those surrounding the facts of her death and the crime scene. FW can contribute little there. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 21. "I'm hanging up my swatter :-)" Posted by Holly on 09:24:18 7/26/2000 I agree. But it's the messing with the crime scene that bothers me. Why didn't he just stay upstairs and guard the basement door, like he was ordered to? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 23. "Holly" Posted by fly on 09:35:00 7/26/2000 Because he was an idiot? He obviously shouldn't have done that. Unless there's something substantial that would cause the jury to truly suspect ulterior motives, I don't think this will matter much in terms of his testimony. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 22. "looking for an out?" Posted by Edie Pratt on 09:26:35 7/26/2000 well now, that certainly defies JR's premise that the police were looking at him, doesn't it? We heard from the start how the police targeted the Ramseys, yet here we have Officer French looking for an OUT! Doesn't sound like the police had it in for them enough to warrant a gaggle of attorneys, why so paranoid? I always thought JR accompanied French, and explained that the door stuck, due to an earlier paint job. There was much ado about the contradiction to his statment, because it was later learned the xmas trees had been stored there. Or, was it Burke's new bike? Whatever, I seem to recall this being an issue because JR lied. Interesting thread, Holly, tho I pray you're wrong. It seems this will never go to trial because everytime we turn around, there's another witness/law enforcer/ friend/ acquaintance/etc. down the loo. It's always someone elses fault but the Ramseys. Well, why is it the Ramseys picked such dubious people to befriend? Everyone's chit stinks, but theirs, huh? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 33. "No one is better at the blame game - " Posted by Holly on 11:15:24 7/26/2000 than the Rammers. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 26. "The importance of being White" Posted by Gemini on 09:55:22 7/26/2000 In regard to the rumor that White refuses to cooperate while Hunter is in office ... I'm pretty sure this was bandied about in connection with his supposed statement that he would refuse to appear before the GJ. Since he did testify, whether voluntarily or via subpoena, I don't think this 'refusal' bit is still relevant. Also, since he would have been under oath, he must have answered the questions by Kane and the jurors. I'd guess they covered those points: The events of the 25th and 26th, plus anything he knew about the Ramseys that would help the investigation. This was all over and done with before MW came on the scene. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 27. "PMPT and the door..." Posted by DebDeb on 10:02:31 7/26/2000 I just posted this but it never showed up anywhere on this thread so I'll try it again... I too heard the early reports of JR being with the officer and saying the door sticks, or was recently painted. But in PMPT this is what was said about that room being checked early on. "When Rick French, the first officer on the scene after Patsy's report of a kidnapping, later saw the spot where the body had been found, he remembered his search of the house in the early morning. In the first minutes, French, seeing from where he stood that the door was latched shut, had thought there was no need to open it. Now he was baffled by his own decision. How hard would it have been to open the door? Had JonBenet still been alive when he stood just a few feet away and decided not to open the door? The thought devasted him." Boy if that wasn't a decsion that could have changed the way the rest of this case went (as soooo many others). [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 29. "Forum members..." Posted by rose on 10:30:09 7/26/2000 Two investigative questions for the forum. Who was the dectective who made that National press conference announcement out of Calif? Remember he made a big to do about he would be revealing the real killer of JonBent? It happened in Dec. 1998 or 1999. The press conference was held in Calif. and fell flat as a flitter, when he said it was Santa Bill who he suspected. We and the press who covered this were disgusted with him. Does anyone know if he lived in Calif. or was just there to make this earth shattering announcement? The reason I bring this up on this thread is the first time I heard of MW, this man came into my mind. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 30. "rose" Posted by Chris on 10:32:56 7/26/2000 I believe his name was Pete Peterson. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 31. "Yes. Pete Peterson." Posted by Holly on 10:35:19 7/26/2000 But I thought he said the Barbie bondage guy did it. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 32. "Pete Peterson?" Posted by Gemini on 10:36:22 7/26/2000 Good Grief! What were his parents thinking? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 34. "PP" Posted by Lacey on 11:26:59 7/26/2000 >Good Grief! What were his parents thinking? LOL! Maybe you should ask DebDeb!! Lace . [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 28. "You said it all" Posted by Holly on 10:12:40 7/26/2000 DebDeb. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 35. "Officer.." Posted by rico on 11:35:48 7/26/2000 French I believe was the policeman that initially searched the basement and he did not search the wine cellar room; a decision he certainly regretted later. Had he done so, perhaps the crime scene would have remained intact FWIW Holly, your ruminations regarding FW's credibility are of little consequence. Any defense attorney worth his/her salt will be less concerned with FW and more interested in the FACT that two former BPD detectives, LA and ST, reached different conclusions as to who the perp is and both, regretably, have stated it publicly. And that in itself goes a long way to fostering "reasonable doubt". JMO JfJBR [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 36. "Holly" Posted by tx_sunshine on 13:13:53 7/26/2000 I have never heard of this before,could you tell me a little more about it. His behavior in GA was beyond the pale. Even I'm offended and I am not a Ramfan, by far. How will this play in court.? A dozen GA mourners testifying to Fleet's rude and curiously overbearing antics. What will a jury think when one of the GA friends describes Fleet's "strangulation" demo? What will they think when the Roswell cops describe the 911 call from Arndt, claiming Fleet was out of control? Thanks. JFJB Tx-sunshine [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 37. "CopS and the door" Posted by Starling on 13:50:42 7/26/2000 Page 19 of Thomas' book: "Reichenbach tried to open the door, stopped when he felt resistance, then returned upstairs. Reichenbach, Officer French, and one of the friends Patsy had called, Fleet White, would all check that white door in the basement during the morning, and White would even open it. They found nothing." Page 22 of Thomas' book: "In the basement he also came to the white door at the far end that was closed and secured at the top by the wooden block on a screw. French was looking for exit points from the house, and the door obviously was not one. No one could have gone through that door, closed it behind them, and locked it on the opposite side by turning the wooden latch, so he did not open it." So you got one cop who felt resistance, and stopped from entering and you got one cop who saw the latch, but determined an intruder didn't exit that way, so he also chose not to open the door. As far as White opening the door, and not seeing JonBenet - he did tell Arndt that happened, after the body was found. Also, after finding the window in it's broken state - he didn't tell a cop, but he did tell John Fernie. So, those things seem sort of normal - but I still don't understand why he fondled with the duct tape. That was pure stupid. Starling [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 41. "Starling" Posted by Gemini on 14:51:13 7/26/2000 If you continue on in Thomas' book to the description of JR opening the door and finding the body, you'll see that ST points out that light was now coming in through large windows in the train room. This seems to be the obvious reason JR was able to see the body when White could not. Also remember, John Ramsey is much shorter than Fleet White, so wouldn't have blocked light from coming in. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 44. "Or he never looked" Posted by Holly on 16:36:41 7/26/2000 to begin with. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 38. "aha!" Posted by Edie Pratt on 14:09:09 7/26/2000 interesting the cops were looking for point of exit, and FW was looking forrrrr? FW knew that door was not an exit, so what was he looking for? How come he wasn't searching the grounds for the intruder, entrances and exits, but instead he did what IMO JR should have done, before he invited anyone? FW's insistence on visiting and revisiting the basement has me scratching my head, I must admit. Did he know something about that room, or did he figure his investigation was as good as any, no matter that the police were already on it? Can you imagine, upon arriving at a crime scene, just brushing past the authorities to have a look for yourself? To actually run to another level of the home, yelling "JonBenet? JonBenet?", is beyond the pale. Had it been one of us, wouldn't the cops intercept us by the shoulders and tell us to sit still and keep our mitts off EVERYTHING? Hey, had it been me, I would still be at the front door in a daze, asking questions, not running around someone elses house acting as though it were my case to solve. I'd still be asking why I was invited along with all the others, lol. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 45. "EdieP" Posted by Holly on 16:38:56 7/26/2000 Supposedly he was looking for places where JB could have been hiding. How did he think she would have hidden in that room and also been on the outside of the door with Inspector Gadget arms to turn the latch? Something is hinky. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 50. "stinky hinky" Posted by Edie Pratt on 17:07:47 7/26/2000 what is most hinky is that FW ran around looking at all! The cops were already there, weren't they? It also shows a certain familiarity with the Hellhole and occupants, doesn't it? Was the basement the first place FW ran to upon arriving at the Hellhole that AM? And, once the body was "found", FW reportedly crept back upstairs, hunkered down by JR's desk, picked up, then hung up the phone, yelling, "somebody call 911!" Well, HE had the phone, why didn't HE call 911? And why'd he run back downstairs? Jesus in a cardigan sweater, wasn't ANYBODY shocked by all the morning's events? Was everyone there so jaded that none of them were thrown for a loop, or did they all expect something like that to happen? Is there any reports that those guests were aghast? One more thing, if you know. When did all the brunch guests go home? Right after the body emerged, or at 8pm when they hauled the corpse out of there? And why, why, didn't the R's stay at FW's? Their place was dandy for stashing Burke, why not the parents? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 39. "Edie pratt" Posted by mary99 on 14:28:46 7/26/2000 Good point there, why was Fleet so bent on examining the basement door if it wasn't an exit. If this was a kidnapping, why was he looking in the basement, in a windowless room, for JonBenet? Did he suspect it wasn't really a kidnapping? If he was 'invited' by the victim's parents to the crime scene and found himself wondering if the parents had a hand in it, he should have gone home so as not to leave any marks (DNA, fingerprints, hairs) that might drag him into the investigation. But instead he hung around and touched important evidence, why also showing by his actions he thought she was in the house somewhere. It makes no sense unless he knew more than we think he did. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 40. "right on, Mary99" Posted by Edie Pratt on 14:43:31 7/26/2000 tis a wonder they ALL didn't turn around and go home, considering the time came and went for the phone call, what were they doing? On the face of things, I'd have to agree, FW knew or suspected something the others didn't. He actually did the logical thing by opening doors, but, it wasn't his job. I don't understand why the cops weren't annoyed, he was clearly dissing them. At the very, very least, FW did not believe the kidnapping ploy. What happened at his house the night before, that got him to act like a K9 officer? Did any of the other guests so much as look in a cupboard for Creamora, let alone JB? Were any of them surprised by FW's actions? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 42. "Maybe" Posted by Seeker on 15:34:39 7/26/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 15:34:39, 7/26/2000 since his own daughter had hidden out (Fleet White's), he thought JonBenet might be hiding too? What if he knew the "kidnapping" was a fake due to the length of the "note"? Didn't he state, at one point, that he was looking for anything that might seem out of place? Gemini, I find it suspicious that John says in DOI that a blanket covered JonBenet and her hands were tied togther, he tried to untie them but the knot was too tight, when her hands were not tied together when she was autopsied. John has changed his statment 3 times thus far on how he "saw" her and how she was at the time. First he said he saw her then turned on the light, 2nd he said he turned on the light and then saw her, 3rd he said he couldn't remember (sworn depo) if he turned on the light or not. hmmmm Then there's his other inconsistant statements (documented on taped interviews). First he found JonBenet on her blanket, then it was next to her blanket, and now that the blanket was covering her? These are some of the things that bother me about the way they keep presenting themselves. I can't really believe them when they keep changing critical (imo) facts. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 43. "In the POS, the minister who ghosted told" Posted by Holly on 16:40:23 7/26/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 16:40:23, 7/26/2000 of an incident that happened to Jeff Ramsey. Fleet had been acting nuts. "In short order, Fleet became more and more animated. He was periodically jabbing Jeff in the chest with his index finger and putting his hands on Jeff's neck. Jeff thought Fleet was on the verge of being out of control." p 295. Other accounts have described it as a strangling demo. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 47. "why was he strangling Jeff?" Posted by Edie Pratt on 16:42:55 7/26/2000 why not PR or JR? That makes no sense whatsoever, and I have to take that account with a grain of salt. Was the ghostwriter the only one that said this, or is there documentation somewhere else? There had to be waaaaaay more going on then a simple argument about tv appearances and cooperation with the BPD. I'm wondering if FW wasn't threatened FIRST? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 49. "EdieP" Posted by Holly on 16:50:15 7/26/2000 I can only guess that he was demonstrating something. The ghostwriter wrote from the Ramsey notes. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 52. "uh, OK" Posted by Edie Pratt on 17:43:18 7/26/2000 here they are gathered for the saddest of reasons, and FW chooses to give a strangling demonstration? Tacky, tacky, considering JB was strangled! That's like giving a demonstration of a gun to your head when at the funeral of a suicide victim. The Ramsey's notes sound bogus at best. And boy, for only knowing FW a "couple of years", and having supposedly ONE thing in common besides their wives, JR has no hard feelings that that clown tried to strangle his brother. Oh, that's right, he's a forgiving guy. Unless of course, you get his socks wet. Since we are discussing the things FW did to make you go hmmm, hmmm, hmmm, then I would think---no, EXPECT, the police and FBI to be tailing, tapping and talking to Fleet until this matter is closed, no? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 46. "Gosh" Posted by v_p on 16:41:13 7/26/2000 Maybe FW really loved JonBenet, not in the sick way you all are insinuating. It's not hard to get attached to a child. Maybe he feels deeply that JR and PR had something to do with JBR's death and he was furious at their actions after her death. He has a daughter her same age. Don't you imagine he counts his blessings daily that it wasn't his daughter? Don't you imagine he knows what he would do if some "monster" violently killed his child and sees the Ramseys doing quite the opposite? Give him a break. Pam Griffin said, the ghost writer for the Ramseys said... Give me a break too. V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 51. "The Fleet bashing continues" Posted by Seeker on 17:23:24 7/26/2000 on the "Star" witness thread. I had some observations on part of what lake posted. Here it is, mine are in the ( ) quotes. some questions and thoughts. Many think that FW was going to be the "key witness" in a case against a Ramsey. (you're right about that. Some people know he knew, or thought he knew, what actually happened that night) Well, for the first year that made sense. But after 1997 FW appeared to be on a mission to destroy his value as a witness at trial.(could that be because he knew Hunter would deliberatly plead it down and he wanted to see justice for JonBenet?) He started writing letters to State officials and to editors of newspapers undercutting both the office of the DA and the leadership to the BPD.(Was this after Eller left? I can understand why he did if Koby was in office then. The DA wasn't going to do anything and he was frustrated that the murderers were living it up and thumbing their noses at everyone in the process. The PD's hands were tied by the DA's office. just an idea/take on it) Some unbiased witness this guy was going to make. (OK, if your best friend had killed his beautiful little girl, would you, in good concious, want them to go free and live high on the hog, as it were? While the DA and PD did nothing to indict them? Or would you "forgive" them for killing her? I don't know what Fleet thought, but this is how I'd feel if my best friend did this, I'd want them lynched right here and now. Maybe John confided in Fleet at the funeral the actual events of that night and who did what? I don't know, but could that be what brought on their fight?) And I would think that people with legal minds pointed that out to him. (did they? did he "lawyer up" and get this type of legal advice?) But did that stop him? No. (what recourse would you suggest he'd have taken? No one wanted to prosecute the murderers. Maybe he's just like us. Maybe he wants justice for a little girl who should have been allowed to grow up? Remember, he knew this child personally, we didn't and see how we're responding?) He wants Hunter removed and the AG to appoint a SP. (because, as many people feel, Hunter is incompetent and gutless when it comes to prosecuting cases. He let a known murderer plea down a case prior. There was sufficient evidence to prosecute and no reasonable doubt. It was a "slam dunk". He still whimped out on it. Why?) Well, if FW thought the case could not be prosecuted and the investigation called off, maybe his real gripe was that Hunter did not have the guts to call the whole thing off and declare the case an unprosecutable case. (or maybe as I speculated above. We don't know what Fleet White thought during this time. I'm not inside his head, so I don't know.) And the cops under Koby were a bunch of keystone cops with as much a beef against Hunter as the Ramseys. (The Ramsey's? Didn't Patsy call Hunter and praise his efforts? I thought the "power struggle" was between the BPD & DA's offices alone? No argument on the BPD being keystone cops though!) They were not going to let go of "the bone". Maybe FW thought in late 1997, early 1998, that a SP was the only way to shut down the investigation before in moved into his backyard. And maybe the last thing he wanted was a GJ taking a backhoe to his "backyard". (or maybe he knew it would be Hunter that chose the GJ and controlled the outcome. As he did.) But, when FW could not get Hunter replaced with a SP, and the GJ train was rolling, the smart thing to do was for him to attack and cast doubt on the GJ process. (I have my doubts about them too since I know Hunter was the final word on what they did, or didn't do) Maybe the guy knew there would be no indictment of a Ramsey on the evidence (he did predict no indictement) and he wanted everything that the DA touched to be contaminated in terms of objectivity where the public was concerned if anything was eventually "dug up" on him that might represent a stronger link the the crime than was already known to the investigation. (I just don't see that happening. I think if anyone contaminated this case it was Hunter and his office by giving evidence, and all their information to the Ramsey's attorney's. jmo) He never really fooled the office of the DA or apparently Kobey or Beckner. Just novice detectives like Steve Thomas. And when Thomas was gone, White's main shill was gone. (Beckner? I doubt it. I think Beckner is Hunter's man. If he wasn't why does he agree to go to Atlanta and interview the Ramsey's, at their convenience, instead of having them come to Boulder, like us "regular" folk? I've never heard Koby say anything about Fleet White, positive, or negative.) ------------------------------------------------ I'm really tired of this "hampster" wheel we're all on lately. I think I'll bail. Nothing new here except some mentally challenged people on their personal crusades trying to cannonise someone who makes allegations (many have been PROVEN to be false) and discredit and vilify someone who may or may not be related to her in any way, means, or fashion. I'm so glad these people have no jobs to do so they can hang out all day spinning crap and trying to prove their case by beating us over the head with "what they know". And for Holly I have questions too: One of the worst things about the Fleet issue is the fact that he has eroded his credibility as a witness for the state (how so? specifically and can you back up your statements? just asking). While a couple of cops love him, he is detested by the Chief of Police, Beckner (yeah, Hunters man) and has few, if any, fans at the DA's office. How did this happen? (see above questions to lake) Fleet White tampered with this case from the minute he arrived at the scene. (Excuse me, but how do you know this? Because you "read" it in a book, or what? I'd really like to know exactly who said this, or where it's written.) He claims he searched for JonBenet in the basement, looked in the windowless room but didn't see a thing and can't recall how he left the latch. Fleet says he opened the door, but the police officer couldn't. (the officer said he didn't know how to undo the latch, his exact words, it's in the archives, if I find it I'll send it to you. Didn't Fleet White also say he checked other area's of the house as well?) These will be important issues at trial.(I doubt there will ever be a trial. The Ramsey's have effectively contaminated any hope of an impartial jury with their national tv crusade. More people think they are guilty now than ever.) Did he ask permission from cops before packing up Burke and sending him to his house (that was John's decision, not the cops), thereby leaving jurors to wonder how much "brainwashing" or suggesting might have occurred before cops tracked Burke down for an interview (the cops illegally interviewed a then 9 year old child without his parent's consent or knowlege. It's possible no one spoke to Burke about his sister and the events at the White home too. It was noted that Burke never once asked his sisters whereabouts, or what was going on per police records. I'll try to locate these for you as well) Why did he return to the crime scene and tamper with the evidence? What will he say on the stand? "I was hysterical, confused. I was certain cops would overlook something? I didn't hear Arndt give that order." It may not make sense to a jury. And worse, a defense lawyer could imply more sinister motives. (who ordered him, to do what? when? Did he say he tampered with evidence? I'm sure it was John in a sworn depo who stated that he shut the broken window and moved the suitcase. Could you provide where Fleet said he touched those things. I'd like to know if it is a direct quote or someone stating he did these things) If he is ever asked by Ramsey lawyers about his behavior at the Fernie's regarding Patsy, what will he say? "I'm just that kind of guy? I was worried about her mental state? I was hopeful she would confess?" Who knows? But he behaved like a nut and that does not enhance his credibility as a star witness. (I must have missed something. What was his actual behavior at the Fernie's?) His behavior in GA was beyond the pale. Even I'm offended and I am not a Ramfan, by far. How will this play in court.? A dozen GA mourners testifying to Fleet's rude and curiously overbearing antics. What will a jury think when one of the GA friends describes Fleet's "strangulation" demo? What will they think when the Roswell cops describe the 911 call from Arndt, claiming Fleet was out of control? (is antics the correct term here? I've seen nothing on this, could you please direct? Arndt claimed that huh? Can you please tell me where I can see this? I've never heard of this until now) When the defense probes Fleet's letter writing agenda, which rang alarms that were often false, what will Fleet say? "I have a right to an opinion. That's how it looked to me at the time. I like to write letters. I love the people of Colorado." What a disaster for the State. (I hope you're right and this is a tried case, but I just don't think it will get to that point. The major damage has been done to keep the Ramsey's free and clear. What alarms are you refering to? Hunter's lack of balls?) When asked about his intimate contact with JonBenet -- changing her panties or wiping her private area, what will a jury hear? Will he respond, "Every guy I know changes little girls' panties and wipes private areas. I'm just a mommy kinda' guy. She needed help and no one else was around. I did it all of the time. JonBenet was my best friend." (do we know for an absolute fact that this occured? If so, maybe he is a normal guy that was only thinking of that little girl in distress from having poopy pants.) When he is asked about his reluctance to testify for the Grand Jury, what will be Fleet's excuse? "It was a set-up by Hunter to divert justice. Hunter bribed the jurors. Hunter was in bed with the other lawyers. They weren't interested in a search for the truth. I don't trust Grand Juries. They might have written a report." What will a jury think? (that he's right on target? Hunter DID have the final say on whether or not to indict the Ramsey's and he chose not too. Now he's on his own media campaign to rebuild his public image (fat chance) and blast Steve Thomas (only). A skilled defense attorney could make FW look like a nut. Or worse. At one time White seemed the hero, but it's 3 years later. And the State's star witness has too many issues and an unstable personality. He's a double edged sword for the prosecution - at best. (Oh Holly, someone could say you're unbalanced too. Doesn't make it true though does it? A skilled defense attorney could work you into a frenzy as well, don't kid yourself. Ever been on trial? For anything?) I've had my say, asked my questions, and shared my thoughts. Personally this is getting so old. See you all when I see you. I'm bailin' out. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 48. "The door" Posted by Real Stormy on 16:47:16 7/26/2000 I think that the report about an officer trying the door was first in the Vanity Fair article. I don't have it in front of me, but it was in the first year after the murder. Written by Anne Louise Bardach. IMO it remains the best report yet. As I recall the report was that John Ramsey told him the door was painted shut. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 53. "Holly" Posted by v_p on 19:45:19 7/26/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 19:45:19, 7/26/2000 >>I'm just a mommy kinda' guy.<<< What does that mean? ~*~* edited to say great post seeker... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 54. "Lemme think." Posted by Holly on 20:20:22 7/26/2000 Oh, now I remember. A "Mr Mom" kinda' guy. :-) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 55. "yeah" Posted by v_p on 20:54:54 7/26/2000 I know... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] ARCHIVE REMOVE