Justice Watch Discussion Board "THE LATCH AND LIGHT Part Two" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... THE LATCH AND LIGHT Part Two, Holly, 20:17:09, 7/27/2000 Let's talk about the room size for a minute., Holly, 20:19:10, 7/27/2000, (#1) Holly, v_p, 20:34:08, 7/27/2000, (#2) I didn't want to be the last post on #1>, ayelean, 20:41:44, 7/27/2000, (#3) ayelean., Holly, 07:23:18, 7/28/2000, (#10) Houseplan, Redd Herring, 20:48:59, 7/27/2000, (#4) door latch, Twinkle, 21:02:49, 7/27/2000, (#5) v_p, Nandee, 21:38:10, 7/27/2000, (#6) Twinkle., Holly, 07:08:28, 7/28/2000, (#8) Excellent Red H, Holly, 07:20:35, 7/28/2000, (#9) v_p, Holly, 07:04:39, 7/28/2000, (#7) Hi v_p, Seeker, 08:36:53, 7/28/2000, (#11) crawl space, Zhanna, 12:44:33, 7/28/2000, (#12) The problem is, lake, 13:08:06, 7/28/2000, (#13) crawlspace, fly, 13:31:39, 7/28/2000, (#14) hi seeker, v_p, 14:04:02, 7/28/2000, (#16) The only possible theory, Holly, 14:56:51, 7/28/2000, (#19) I see your point, fly.., Zhanna, 13:57:51, 7/28/2000, (#15) Zhana., Holly, 14:46:51, 7/28/2000, (#18) That..., Zhanna, 15:15:30, 7/28/2000, (#24) Yeh, lake, 14:45:02, 7/28/2000, (#17) Well, yes..., Zhanna, 15:20:07, 7/28/2000, (#25) Lake..., Voyager, 15:04:56, 7/28/2000, (#22) And, lake, 15:00:22, 7/28/2000, (#21) if JR did indeed move the body, Edie Pratt, 14:58:45, 7/28/2000, (#20) For chit's sake edie, v_p, 15:23:14, 7/28/2000, (#26) Hi, V-P, Edie Pratt, 15:33:07, 7/28/2000, (#28) Voyager, lake, 15:12:24, 7/28/2000, (#23) Speclation, lake, 15:38:36, 7/28/2000, (#30) Steve Thomas..., rose, 15:37:51, 7/28/2000, (#29) lake, v_p, 15:32:25, 7/28/2000, (#27) no, V-P, Edie Pratt, 15:59:39, 7/28/2000, (#31) ................................................................... "THE LATCH AND LIGHT Part Two" Posted by Holly on 20:17:09 7/27/2000 Carry on. :-) [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "Let's talk about the room size for a minute." Posted by Holly on 20:19:10 7/27/2000 Does anyone know the dimensions? It looks (like the rest of the Hellhole) smaller than you might think. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "Holly" Posted by v_p on 20:34:08 7/27/2000 Try the back of PMPT, pg. 603. There are diagrams of the house. These diagrams give you an idea of how difficult it would have been to see JBR's body without the lights being on. JR found her more easily because he remembered where he left her. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "I didn't want to be the last post on #1>" Posted by ayelean on 20:41:44 7/27/2000 Since it pertains to the first 2 posts I will copy it here, I close down too many threads as it is. LOL 83. "Some thoughts>" Posted by ayelean on 19:51:40 7/27/2000 First of all I could go either way on the guilt or innocence of FW. I need more facts. Until then I am going on the premise of no direct guilt on the death of JBR. Could any of you Boulderites look up the previous owners of the hellhole? That might be a start as to how exactly that door, the lighting, the size of the room etc plays in this portion of the mystery. It would be my guess that the latch is there because it HOLDS the door shut. I doubt if there is a threat of the latch falling into place accidently. The door probably has to be forced shut for the latch to be able to close. It is possible that the murderer wanted FW there and had to invite all the others so it wouldn't look obvious to FW that he was being used as a scapegoat. Indeed it may be the total reason for inviting all the guests, eg to dilute Fleet's presence. I would guess that the murderer knew FW's nature and knew that he would be all over the scene and that his nature would be to disregard any orders from public servants. His arrogance is probably a trademark. If the murderer wanted the murder to resemble a ritualistic sexual abuse crime, and the murderer knew even a little of the quasi-relative that rightly or wrongly holds the Fleets responsible for her history, then inviting Fleet to muck up the crime scene was a planned event. If FW did have anything to with the murder do you think he would jump in his jalopy and be on the Ram's doorstep at 6am? I think he would have delayed to take a shower, bring in the cat, put the dog out, started the coffee or a host of other early morning chores to not get there before the body was found. I don't think he would have acted so eager beaver to be johnny on the spot that morning. About the odor of JBR. At 6-7 in the morning the longest she could be dead would have been 7-8 hours. A discernable odor wouldn't have been present. By 1pm she would have been dead 13 to 14hrs and depending on various conditions there may have been a slight odor. When Arndt said there was an odor of decay, it could have been the musty or moldy odors that the blanket (first like a pappoose then a taco, LOL Edie) could have picked up from that yucky floor and room. Also it might be possible that JBR's body was covered by something in that room, say a packing carton or one of those screens, at the time FW looked in there. Then later John lifted something off of her so the white blanket was exposed. I still don't think John SAW the body before he yelled that he did. He knew it was there because he found it earlier on his trip to the basement. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. "ayelean." Posted by Holly on 07:23:18 7/28/2000 The body was to the left of the doorway against the interior wall. I think the screens were on the opposite side. Good post. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "Houseplan" Posted by Redd Herring on 20:48:59 7/27/2000 Please familiarize yourselves with this houseplan as well. It is more accurate than the one in PMPT. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Senate/6502/primer2/primer10_blue.html [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "door latch" Posted by Twinkle on 21:02:49 7/27/2000 I scanned in the photos from Newsweek, scroll down to the bottom of the page and the latch is circled in red. http://members.xoom.com/tictac5000/newsweek_photos.html [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "v_p" Posted by Nandee on 21:38:10 7/27/2000 "JR found her more easily because he remembered where he left her." Yep..... It's what you call a no-brainer!!! I like the way you think!!! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 8. "Twinkle." Posted by Holly on 07:08:28 7/28/2000 OMIGOD. There's no way, even with Inspector Gadget arms, that JB could have reached that latch. Wonderful. Thanks for those pics. If the boiler room light was on, how the hell did Fleet miss her? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "Excellent Red H" Posted by Holly on 07:20:35 7/28/2000 I calculate that the wine cellar is about 12'x10'. There were some screens, paint cans and junk sitting on the floor. From the autopsy report -- "REMAINDER OF EXTERNAL EXAMINATION: The unembalmed, well developed and well nourished caucasian female body measures 47 inches in length". So if you add the arms pulled over her head, you can add another 14 inches making the total length of her corpse about 61 inches long, wrapped in a bright white blanket. Lay the fairly long corpse on the wine cellar room floor in the location Redd Herring indicates and the bundle takes up more than half the length of the wall. IOW, it was hard to miss. The space is only 120 sq feet. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "v_p" Posted by Holly on 07:04:39 7/28/2000 LOL. Yes, I looked carefully at the house diagrams. But the pics taken by Candy and posted by Seeker are even better. My hunch is that the boiler room light was on and that FW never encountered "stygian darkness". I also think that with her arms over her head, JB stretched out to about 50 -52 inches. Therefore, she took up alot of the available floorspace in the wine cellar. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 11. "Hi v_p" Posted by Seeker on 08:36:53 7/28/2000 "I also think that with her arms over her head, JB stretched out to about 50 -52 inches. Therefore, she took up alot of the available floorspace in the wine cellar." 52 inches is just over 4 feet. Not really a lot of area, especially since she was so small otherwise. Is there any reference to the door in those Newsweek photos? I don't know, the way these photos look, it looks like they were taken from inside the room? Or did they have debri & Christmas clutter all over the basement? Holly, "I calculate that the wine cellar is about 12'x10'. There were some screens, paint cans and junk sitting on the floor." But what else was in that room at the time? Remember Candy's photos were taken well after the Ramsey's moved out. Could there have been other items in there that would, or could have obstructed someone's view of the body? What if her body was not in that area when Fleet looked origianlly. John went down there during his missing time, even though he contradicted himself on this explination. He first said he went to the basement, then he said he went to the garage, then he said he went outside. Hmmmm. He would have had ample time to move her, no one noticed he were he was or that he had left. Dt Ardnt didn't see him leave, she only noticed he was gone for a period of 30 minutes or so. With all those people there, no one noticed him leave? What else didn't they see him do? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 12. "crawl space" Posted by Zhanna on 12:50:12 7/28/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 12:50:12, 7/28/2000 I too suspect that JB wasn't in the wine cellar earlier in the day. There's a crawl space in the house and a navy duffle bag of some sort was found in there as I recall. Was the access hatch to the crawl space in the wine cellar or the boiler room? I can't remember. Edit: Checked layout; crawl space entry is from the train room. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. "The problem is" Posted by lake on 13:08:06 7/28/2000 That if JR could have moved the body with a house full of civilians and cops, so could someone else have moved the body. If Arndt could not keep up with JR, I doubt she kept up with the whereabouts of FW. I doubt anyone moved the body with all those civilians and cops in the house. I think it is more likely that you are letting FW pull your leg. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 14. "crawlspace" Posted by fly on 13:31:39 7/28/2000 One problem with the idea of JBR being stashed in the crawlspace, then moved later that morning is that there is no notation about her clothing being dirty. Perhaps that was left out of the autopsy. It is unlikely that she was in the dufflebag and thus kept clean, unless that bag was quite large (as some are). She would have been in a state of considerable rigor by mid morning, so the position of her arms when found was probably the position they were in while in the crawlspace, not to mention the mismatch of the livor mortis pattern would tip off a change in position. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "hi seeker" Posted by v_p on 14:04:02 7/28/2000 You know how when you walk from a well lit room into a dark room it takes your eyes a minute or so to adjust? Maybe that's what happened to FW. He just looked in quickly and didn't see anything so he shut the door. JR, on the other hand knew she was there, light on or off. In my fantasy, someone else finds the body and moves it out of the wine cellar. JR opens the door, yelling he found her and, oops!!, she's not there. LOL I can dream. Could someone give me their theory on how FW is involved in the murder. Please?? Start to finish. I am having a hard time understanding how his seeing or not seeing the body is relevant. What if he did...what does it mean? He put it there and was just checking to see if she was still there? What? V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 19. "The only possible theory" Posted by Holly on 14:56:51 7/28/2000 I can imagine, involving White directly in the murder/cover-up, is if MW's claims actually are close to the truth. Since they have not been proven, it's only a scenario. But if a sex party took place and JB was abused and it went too far, then he may have been involved. Second to that it is possible, if for some reason, the Rammers called for White's help. I seriously doubt that. It may also be that there was no sex ring activity that night. JR may have been caught by Patsy or vice versa or Patsy or JR may have acted alone. However, upon arriving, FW may have observed some red flags and began to panic. The panic could have stemmed from the MW suggested skeletons. These are only scenarios I have considered, based on the many twists and turns in this case. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "I see your point, fly.." Posted by Zhanna on 13:59:31 7/28/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 13:59:31, 7/28/2000 ...about the absence of dirt from the crawl space and, yes, with the arms extended overhead the idea of a large duffle bag, no matter how large, does not work. I realize that there are reasonable scenarios that account for the arms being in the overhead position during the time the killing took place, but have wondered why her arms were not placed in a more natural position before rigor set in and before she was stashed. I can't imagine that the Ramseys would have "hidden" the body on the floor of a room, even a remote room, when there were other, far better, places to stash it. Maybe the position of the arms offers a clue to the original hiding place; pulling the arms overhead might have allowed the body to be squeezed into a narrow passage of some type. In the days when the hellhole was built, heating ducts were were large and tubular (often about 18" in diameter). Do we know whether these old ducts were still present in the hellhole and whether any could have been accessed from the ceiling of the boiler room? Didn't we hear that there was dust of some sort on the white blanket? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "Zhana." Posted by Holly on 14:46:51 7/28/2000 I think her body was way in the back of the basement, so that the Rammers would have an excuse for not hearing anything. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 24. "That..." Posted by Zhanna on 15:15:30 7/28/2000 ...is certainly a possibility, holly. But somehow it doesn't fit with the ransom note plan in my view. I think the decision to move the body was either the fear that the police were planning to bring in bloodhounds or the knowledge that the odor was soon going to give away the hiding place -- a place that could only have been known of by the Ramseys. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 17. "Yeh" Posted by lake on 14:45:02 7/28/2000 "I can't imagine that the Ramseys would have "hidden" the body on the floor of a room, even a remote room, when there were other, far better, places to stash it." It is much more reasonable to speculate that the R's would have killed their daughter, hid her in a more reasonable place, waited to let the cops check the house when they arrived, then with the house full of civilians and cops, sneek away and move the body from one location to another. Now, there have been some really creative reasons given as to why JR would do this. About as creative as why FW did not see the body of JBR when he said he opened to door to the windowless room and did not see the body or make an effort see what was in the room after he opened the door. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 25. "Well, yes..." Posted by Zhanna on 15:20:58 7/28/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 15:20:58, 7/28/2000 it would have been extremely nerve wracking to be forced to move the body with police and friends in the house. In fact, it would have been enough to make a person go pale and feel the need to toss down a tall vodka, don't you think? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 22. "Lake..." Posted by Voyager on 15:04:56 7/28/2000 Creative reason #1. What if John had to move JonBenet's body out of the trunk of his car, where he had stashed her originally, planning to take her directly to the airport, and away from the scene of the "kidnapping"? This proved not such a good place to hide her after all as the cops, instead of going outside to home to pursue the kidnappers, were beginning to focus in on searching in the home. How would it have looked if they had discovered JonBenet's body in the trunk of her own father's car in her very own father's garage. Perhaps that was the necessity of the quick movement of the body which otherwise might have been delayed for days. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 21. "And" Posted by lake on 15:00:22 7/28/2000 "I think her body was way in the back of the basement, so that the Rammers would have an excuse for not hearing anything." Is a far more speculative matter than that JBR was killed outside the windowless room, as supported by the scream the neighbor said she heard, that may well have traveled across the street unobstructed because of the open vent in the boiler room. And the dead body of JBR being simply pulled by her arms into the windowless room and the door closed by the killer. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 20. "if JR did indeed move the body" Posted by Edie Pratt on 15:03:42 7/28/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 15:03:42, 7/28/2000 then, why? Was she hiding in plain sight? Or, was she hidden in a place that would give the perp away, especially given the way the morning and police were turning out? I mean, what got JR to retrace his steps, and make necessary adjustments? I read that the only time the R's were seen together that morning, was right before JR went missing. He and P were in the dining room, I believe, and it was said they were speaking with their heads together and in low voices. Man, if that's true, that someone made that observation, then why didn't that someone keep a closer eye on JR? PS in the movie PMPT, the morning in the Hellhole was depicted as rather quiet and sedate. If that was a real depiction, then how hard could it have been to watch 9 or 10 people??? When Arndt said she wanted them all in the same room, did they say "NO"? Can't get past this, why was she such a ninny? Flight Attendants are bigger battle axes than that cop! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 26. "For chit's sake edie" Posted by v_p on 15:23:14 7/28/2000 roflmao >>Flight Attendants are bigger battle axes than that cop!<<< Ain't what they used to be, that's fo sho. I agree Holly, hiding her in that room gave them the excuse not to have heard her. Someone said yesterday that the lock may have been on the door to "lock someone in." I don't think so. There were Christmas trees, plural, stored in that room. I think it's more a problem with the door swinging open if not latched properly. If it was, indeed, a wine cellar at some point, perhaps the latch was that high to keep children out. I don't see JR moving the body from the trunk of his car at all. Even he is not that dense. I think, rather, he may have moved her more into plain sight. After all, FW and the cops didn't see her and she needed to be found. They needed to get this over with. In reading PMPT again last night, I noticed it was Nedra who related the story of FW bringing JonBenet home with a change of clothes because she had wet or soiled herself. Are there other references to this event elsewhere? I have a hard time lending legititamacy to anything the woman has to say. V. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 28. "Hi, V-P" Posted by Edie Pratt on 15:33:07 7/28/2000 Nedra has some credibility issues, or is slightly out of touch with reality. The "little bit molested" theory of hers is a good example of that. She also gives them away, because of the comment she makes about FW. Sounds like she was given instructions on who to point out, and what to point out. I often wonder if the family wasn't plunked down and told the truth, and from there they all had their work to do. (Looks like CAP got the pink slip, lol) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 23. "Voyager" Posted by lake on 15:19:02 7/28/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 15:19:02, 7/28/2000 But, think of how it would have looked for FW if he maybe had to explain his prints on the door to the windowless room, the tape, the broken glass and the handle to the suitcase if he had not maybe made up that series of actions he performed alone in the basement that does not pass the laugh test for some. But you do get an A+ for creative speculation. Moving that body from the jeep to the windowless room must have been on sight to watch sometime between 10am and 12 noon. That is about as good as the FW trio of events in the basement. They both fail the laugh test IMO. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 30. "Speclation" Posted by lake on 15:38:36 7/28/2000 Not supported by the evidence is what Steve Thomas engaged in. The known evidence supports JBR being killed out side the door to the windowless room an pulled by her arms on the floor into that room and the door shut and the wooden latch moved into place. Now if one choses to belive and engage in unsupported by the evidence speculation, that is their business. And if one chooses to accept the story of FW at face value, that is their choice also. The evidence does not support the White story nor can the evidence disprove his story. Because finger prints cannot be dated. And if FW and his wife were so concerned about JBR on the morning of 12/26/96, it sure did not taken them long to get over it and become more concerned about the image of Boulder, and investigatiors digging up dirt on people in Boulder. Less than 24 hours, or so it appears. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 29. "Steve Thomas..." Posted by rose on 15:37:51 7/28/2000 Maybe Steve Thomas is good for the murder. I could speculate and come up with all kinds of theories that we could talk to death. (disclaimer) THIS IS A JOKE. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 27. "lake" Posted by v_p on 15:32:25 7/28/2000 Let's say he, FW, killed JBR and stashed her in the wine cellar. While doing so, according to the insinuations, he would have touched the suitcase and the broken glass. I understand how the door and the duct tape might pose a problem, but why would he have touched the suitcase and glass in the first place?? I mean, why would he have to touch them again just to cover? I think the White's and Ramseys were good enough friends that their fingerprints found in the Rams house would not prove they were involved. Only if FW's fingerprints were on the duct tape would it give rise to suspicions. Were there identifiable fingerprints found on the garrote, (paint brush)? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 31. "no, V-P" Posted by Edie Pratt on 16:01:51 7/28/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 16:01:51, 7/28/2000 funny, the R's fingerprints weren't on anything perfectly innocent to have their prints on, like the flashlight batteries, so if FW is the culprit, did he take his gloves off for certain "chores"? Why would he take his gloves off to pick up a piece of glass? Or, to move the suitcase under the window? I suspect the murderer was known to him then and there. The bit about him running in and out of the office after finding JB, makes me think JR and FW had a quick discussion down there, that he was acting on JR's orders. It is odd that in all the chaos, he calls home to report. That's gossipy, at the very least. Is that why he yelled for someone to call 911? So that he could use the office phone for personal calls? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] ARCHIVE REMOVE