Justice Watch Discussion Board "If you care....ACT!" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... If you care....ACT!, mame, 10:37:25, 8/17/2000 I had no idea!, Anton, 11:04:14, 8/17/2000, (#1) mame, Seashell, 11:30:19, 8/17/2000, (#2) Bingo, Seashell!, MJenn, 11:52:19, 8/17/2000, (#3) Just this week, a cop in Colorado, fiddler, 11:57:27, 8/17/2000, (#4) wondering, fly, 12:10:36, 8/17/2000, (#5) Help me, Jesus, Seashell, 13:02:47, 8/17/2000, (#6) fly, I agree..., Anton, 13:18:06, 8/17/2000, (#8) Hey!!!, Sailer, 13:17:13, 8/17/2000, (#7) Seashell, fly, 13:36:34, 8/17/2000, (#9) I hope not, Sailer, MJenn, 14:56:53, 8/17/2000, (#10) interesting background !, Hoot, 19:02:25, 8/17/2000, (#12) MJenn...., rose, 17:19:17, 8/17/2000, (#11) Rose and Hoot, MJenn, 20:02:24, 8/17/2000, (#13) Mjenn, v_p, 20:23:48, 8/17/2000, (#14) Too harsh, vp? Naaahhh!, MJenn, 21:39:12, 8/17/2000, (#15) Thank you so much, Mame..., Dunvegan, 22:24:18, 8/17/2000, (#16) I'm such an ingrate! Thanks, Mame!, MJenn, 22:56:54, 8/17/2000, (#17) Time for a change, mary99, 00:00:19, 8/18/2000, (#18) fly--you mean you're NOT a , fiddler, 00:48:54, 8/18/2000, (#19) ................................................................... "If you care....ACT!" Posted by mame on 10:37:25 8/17/2000 Please visit the following link and if you support this legislation please do everything you can to get the word out! http://www.careact.org/ This is the first federal bill with it's own dedicated website. How can a bill like this get bogged down in committee? It's a no brainer for those who care about children. Please pass this on to anyone and everyone you know who might support this very important legislation! [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "I had no idea!" Posted by Anton on 11:04:14 8/17/2000 I can't believe legislation exists which makes incest a lesser crime than molesting someone else's child. This is another example of how screwed up the laws are and how denial permeates so much of our society. This is absurd and evil. You bet I'll write to these legislators! Anton [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "mame" Posted by Seashell on 11:30:19 8/17/2000 Thank you for bringing this to our attention. My letters are written and sent. Who makes these insane laws, men who incest their own children? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "Bingo, Seashell!" Posted by MJenn on 11:52:19 8/17/2000 Can you imagine how different the laws would be if women had been equally represented in the makeup of Congress since the beginning? It's maddening, isn't it? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "Just this week, a cop in Colorado" Posted by fiddler on 11:57:27 8/17/2000 was sentenced to eight years in prison for having incest with his daughter from the time she was seven until sixteen (the daughter turned him in). This guy worked in the sex crimes unit, by the way. Anyhow, his defense attorney told the press that his client didn't deserve such a "harsh"(???!!!) sentence, because he'd already been punished by losing his job and being humiliated in public. And here I was, thinking that eight years was pathetically little punishment for what this creep had done. Disgusting. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "wondering" Posted by fly on 12:10:36 8/17/2000 I just read the bill, the FAQ's, and the intro blurbs on the articles. No legislative expert here, but it looks to me like one problem might be the appropriation of $50million, not to mention mandating the states develop a database of information on inter vs intra family sexual abuse of kids. I have to wonder if this bill is really necessary. I suspect that although current law might allow the prosecutor the option of charging this "lesser" offense, couldn't the person already be charged with a the more generic offense of child sexual abuse, just like a stranger attacker would be? Is removing the prosecutor's loophole worth more bureaucracy? Dang, I'm sounding like a Republican. Strange, I notice a lot of those sponsors are ultra-conservative Republicans. Ah, but I forget, the Republicans are the ones always yelling to keep the Feds out of everybody's business, while trying to tell people what they should be doing in their bedrooms and trying to restrict the decisions women make concerning their own bodies. Go figure. Before you call me an insensitive clod (again), I'm not saying parent sexual abusers should get off easier. I support the laws that give harsher penalties to abusers in "positions of trust" to the child. I just have to wonder if this bill is really necessary or whether it is mostly window dressing for certain folks. Pardon my political rant. It IS election year, afterall. donning my asbestos longjohns... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "Help me, Jesus" Posted by Seashell on 13:02:47 8/17/2000 "Can you imagine how different the laws would be if women had been equally represented in the makeup of Congress since the beginning? It's maddening, isn't it?" Yes, MJenn, it's maddening. Who was the slimeball defense attorney for this sicko who incested his kid and then should be pitied, Haddon? I believe convicted incestors should be castrated, how's that for extreme thinking? Same for rapists. If not castrated, then given something to make them impotent. fly, I'm not going to get into it with you. I think that you love playing the devil's advocate; so well that I'm thinking you might be an attorney and maybe here for a special reason. You play right into the RST hands IMO. Are you aware of that? You do a good job of trying, I said trying, to create reasonable doubt. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 8. "fly, I agree..." Posted by Anton on 13:18:06 8/17/2000 The legislative process is a mess. Any bill gets attached by legislators' pet projects or gummed up by unnecessary restrictions (which sounds a lot like the Ramseys' legal tactics). I really don't know if this bill or any federal law will make the changes that need to be made. Truthfully, I get lost when reading the details of a bill, any bill. I think that's the point, to get us hooked by the pushed premise and then stick us with stuff that wouldn't pass if presented on its own merit. Maybe a more proactive approach is to contact our local district attorneys and tell them we don't want to have child molesters of any sort coddled or let off lightly. If the DA says "but I have to because of this law", then that tells us the direction to go. Then again, my family was personal friends with a county DA at one point and my mother is a molester. I don't know a solution. I tend to distrust politicians of any stripe. I also don't favor vigilantism. There must be some compromise that will work. Anton [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "Hey!!!" Posted by Sailer on 13:17:13 8/17/2000 What the hell is this - if women had been represented??? Is this a guy vs girl thing?? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "Seashell" Posted by fly on 13:39:57 8/17/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 13:39:57, 8/17/2000 Seashell - I assure you I am not an attorney or involved in the legal profession at all. I seriously doubt that anything I've said would be a revelation to the Ramsey team. I have no agenda. I am not here for any purpose other than our common purpose - to take part in an internet community discussion of an interesting case. Somebody had indicated they couldn't understand why this bill would run into any trouble. I pointed out a couple of things that I thought might be relevant, and asked a simple, but pretty obvious question - is this law REALLY needed? Didn't say it wasn't, just asked - with an explanation for why I wondered. My political comments were designed to needle some Republicans out there, but in good humor. Edited to add: Seashell - Did you read the site's explanation of the likely origin of the "incest" laws in most states, and the idea that they were never really intended to address father/daughter sexual abuse. At least I'm pretty sure that was the idea - was skimming a bit there. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. "I hope not, Sailer" Posted by MJenn on 15:04:34 8/17/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 15:04:34, 8/17/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 14:58:49, 8/17/2000 I hope it's a right vs. wrong thing. I was only referring to the fact that when the U.S. Congress was established women were still considered property, not allowed to own or inherit property, and could not even vote. If a man wanted to beat his wife, he had every right and the community's support to do so, de facto. Only in recent years has spousal rape even been legally a crime. So imagine what rights children had--none. It has been my experience, with men and women, that when given free reign over others, terrible human atrocities occur. The balance of power established by the Constitution is brilliant for many reasons, not the least in that it checks that in human nature which unfettered can become as twisted as slavery and the Holocaust. Because of the inequity of representation in government, the serious issues of rape, abuse, and molestation that women and children have always born in their daily lives, often perpetuated overwhelmingly, but not exclusively, by men, have been grievously ignored or abandoned by those who belong to the group committing these violations. In other words, the fox has been guarding the henhouse. Now, take a blood pressure pill, 'cause I'm not bashing men. I know the majority of men don't commit these acts. But I do know that it takes adequate representation in government of any group of people to get their issues on the agenda, and that representation is still sorely lacking. That was my point. And let me warn you if you need testimony that these violations are as common as going shopping, I will tell you more than you ever wanted to know about what it's like to grow up female in this world, from dirty old men to retarded men, from flashers to public masturbators, from predatory neighbors and relatives to frightening strangers, from sexual coercion and rape drugs to gang rape to sexual sadism and serial killers to...a murdered little girl whose own family and community won't speak for her. Oh, no. Now I'm on the soap box. Sorry. I guess I made my point. (Edited for spelling--twice: did anyone ever figure out how to link a spell check to the message page?) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 12. "interesting background !" Posted by Hoot on 19:02:25 8/17/2000 sure would enjoy hearing the details of all that (undeserved) mistreatment...wow! Makes me forget for a moment why we are all assembled here...but just for a moment. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ EMAIL Hoot ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 11. "MJenn...." Posted by rose on 17:19:17 8/17/2000 AMEN!!!!!! Loved that last line. A murdered little girl, whose Family and Community won't stand up for. I don't think I would have ever even got interested in this case if I had not accidently tuned in to CNN and saw her parents thanking me for my concern and telling me that they would overcome this tragedy in their lives and move on. Some will say that they were acting dignified, but I know lots of dignified and soft spoken fathers and let me tell you they would have been so angry and upset at what had been done to their child. They could not not have been able to hide this anger. I never saw that. In fact if they had shown some anger and talked about their lovly child( and she was beautiful) then I would have walked away thinking I hope they find the sorry piece of humanity who did this. But instead they made me feel something is wrong with these people, they don't act right, and they have never changed my mind since. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. "Rose and Hoot" Posted by MJenn on 20:02:24 8/17/2000 Yeah, Rose, that was a major attention getter. Spin it any way you want, I could not imagine being able to compose myself to address the world at large at such a time, yet claim I could not talk with the police. All you said was right on. Hoot, I'm not sure if you're being facetious, but let me assure you that all of that did not happen to me, though some of it did. As a sexual assault victims' advocate, I've seen and heard a lot, and I've known a lot of women and children in my average walk through life who have shared their stories. If you haven't had any experiences with sexaul assault or do not think that you know anyone who has, then you've led a very lucky and sheltered life. Now, do you seriously want to hear the details? It will be quite a long catalog and time-consuming, but I'll oblige. In fact, why don't you start a thread and ask for volunteers to share their experiences with sexual assault? It might make for interesting, but disturbing, reading. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 14. "Mjenn" Posted by v_p on 20:23:48 8/17/2000 Hey...try http://www.gurunet.com It's a great spell-check for anywhere you post. It sits on your task bar. Someone here recommended it a while back. Has a thesaurus too. Gem, I used to think castration was the answer, but I believe a lot of sexual abuse has more to do with anger and mental illness than sex. My choice of punishment for child molesters, be they related or stranger, is the opposite. I think they should have their hands, tongue, feet and penis amputated and then given viagra in high doses. There is nothing, in my opinion, more worthless and unremorseful than a child molester. Look at all the deaths of young children, Polly Klaas, etc., who could have been saved if these bastids were put away for life. They usually get probabtion. If you kill the man who molests your children, you get life...what was the woman's name who got out of prison due to illness? Do you think I'm being too harsh?? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "Too harsh, vp? Naaahhh!" Posted by MJenn on 21:39:12 8/17/2000 We really should give that woman a medal and compensate her and her son and family for all the damage the criminal justice system inflicted on them in its complete bungling of the case. Ditto Polly Klaas's family. I think all judges, juries and parole boards should have to live in the same neighborhood with the child molesters released by them. Also Congress members. Just one big happy community, if they think they're so rehabilitated. If there's not a child molester out there who isn't already planning his next victim before he ever leaves prison, then he's an anomaly, and that's upheld by statistics. They have the hightest percentage of reoffending of any criminal group. And that's just the ones who get caught again. My favorite part is how schools, churches and families protect them to avoid the scandal. Lovely world we inhabit. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "Thank you so much, Mame..." Posted by Dunvegan on 22:25:53 8/17/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 22:25:53, 8/17/2000 ...for bringing HR Bill 2382 to our attention. I went to the link, copied the sample letter, looked up my Congresswoman, added an introductory paragraph, and pressed "send" in less than five minutes. It's pretty painless. If you have strong feelings of support for this bill, please consider sending your Congressperson a quick note...and pass on the word. Again...thanks so very much, Mame. Edited to say "Thanks!" to Mame at the end. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 17. "I'm such an ingrate! Thanks, Mame!" Posted by MJenn on 22:56:54 8/17/2000 Dunvegan, I was just thinking about you today, about how much I missed your artwork. Nice to hear from you. Thanks for the blueprint. Cleland will be hearing from me today. And yes, thanks Mame, for this whole thread, and for all you do for the cause. God bless. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "Time for a change" Posted by mary99 on 00:00:19 8/18/2000 Rape is rape. Any law that treats incest or rape of one's children as a lesser crime than rape of a stranger is unfair to the victim. The existing laws make it more advantageous to victimize one's own children. Hope this law passes soon; anyone would be hard-pressed to explain why it shouldn't. Thanks for bringing this to our attention, Mame. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 19. "fly--you mean you're NOT a " Posted by fiddler on 00:48:54 8/18/2000 Republican??? I'm truly surprised. Your super-analytical style would fit right in with the social Darwinists, I would think. Now, I'm a registered Republican (for the reasons you mentioned--ideally, no government intrusion into private behavior) who's voted Green for a long time now, out of extreme discomfort with the Christian Coalition. So go figure. Ideas have consequences, but not necessarily the ones anyone would expect.... mary99, I agree. I think it should be the opposite--rape by a person in a position of trust is incredibly worse than rape by a stranger. Except not, I guess, in the view of the perps. And an awful lot of perps are "representing" us, and making our laws. How to change that??????? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] ARCHIVE REMOVE