Justice Watch Support JW "White Buffalo, or Who Do You Trust?" [ Main ] [ Post New Thread ] [ Help ] [ Search ] Table of Contents ................................................................... White Buffalo, or Who Do You Trust?, Gemini, 19:20:24, 9/11/2000 Trust , lake, 19:44:25, 9/11/2000, (#1) trust?, Nandee, 19:53:24, 9/11/2000, (#2) the show must go on, Edie Pratt, 20:03:03, 9/11/2000, (#4) I'll play . . ., Ribaldone, 19:59:27, 9/11/2000, (#3) You know,, Gemini, 20:08:56, 9/11/2000, (#5) GERALDO RIVERA!, Ginja, 20:24:31, 9/11/2000, (#7) EP, lake, 20:20:46, 9/11/2000, (#6) Theatrics, Ginja, 20:38:29, 9/11/2000, (#9) True, lake, 20:44:07, 9/11/2000, (#11) hold the mayo,Leak, Edie Pratt, 20:26:45, 9/11/2000, (#8) Miracle, pinker, 20:43:57, 9/11/2000, (#10) My white buffalo, v_p, 20:58:45, 9/11/2000, (#12) No heroes..., Greenleaf, 21:46:33, 9/11/2000, (#13) Greenleaf...., rose, 22:51:37, 9/11/2000, (#14) Heroes, momo, 04:47:49, 9/12/2000, (#15) That was a, Watching you, 07:18:51, 9/12/2000, (#16) Hero...., rose, 10:23:58, 9/12/2000, (#17) nope, not a loaded question, Gemini, 10:39:11, 9/12/2000, (#19) An Informed Opinion...., Voyager, 11:23:34, 9/12/2000, (#24) Heros?, Ribaldone, 10:39:02, 9/12/2000, (#18) I would trust, Watching you, 10:53:04, 9/12/2000, (#21) I just thought of another one . . ., Ribaldone, 10:52:51, 9/12/2000, (#20) Ribaldone, momo, 11:09:35, 9/12/2000, (#22) Momo, Ribaldone, 11:14:31, 9/12/2000, (#23) Did Someone Mention Henry Lee?, LurkerXIV, 18:06:56, 9/12/2000, (#25) Chuck, pinker, 18:21:16, 9/12/2000, (#26) Norm Early, sabrina, 18:56:22, 9/12/2000, (#27) Voyager, RiverRat, 20:03:30, 9/12/2000, (#28) Voyager, Gemini, 13:18:52, 9/13/2000, (#29) Oh, Lake, Please., La Contessa, 14:32:42, 9/13/2000, (#30) LC, lake, 14:41:32, 9/13/2000, (#31) ACH!!! Voyager, Gemini, 14:48:40, 9/13/2000, (#32) How could I have forgot . . ., Ribaldone, 15:57:55, 9/13/2000, (#33) Gemini....., Voyager, 11:32:13, 9/14/2000, (#34) Gem, river, 12:01:35, 9/14/2000, (#35) Voyager and River, Gemini, 13:25:37, 9/14/2000, (#36) Ribaldone (lol), KrayonC, 00:02:12, 9/15/2000, (#37) FW, river, 05:34:24, 9/15/2000, (#38) General IMO , Lacey, 08:03:56, 9/15/2000, (#41) Gem, river, 08:00:30, 9/15/2000, (#40) That's good River, Ribaldone, 08:00:28, 9/15/2000, (#39) the switch, river, 08:09:19, 9/15/2000, (#42) Well River, Ribaldone, 15:31:51, 9/15/2000, (#43) That pesky light switch, ayelean, 18:18:26, 9/15/2000, (#44) Ribaldone, river, 03:43:12, 9/16/2000, (#45) River, Voyager, 11:15:38, 9/16/2000, (#46) what I find strange, Edie Pratt, 12:02:52, 9/16/2000, (#47) Voyager, river, 12:48:06, 9/16/2000, (#48) OK River, Let's Hear It....., Voyager, 21:38:07, 9/16/2000, (#49) I really hate it..., Dunvegan, 23:21:55, 9/16/2000, (#50) thank you Dunvegan!, ayelean, 03:46:05, 9/17/2000, (#51) near the floor?, river, 04:16:05, 9/17/2000, (#52) River..., Dunvegan, 10:58:29, 9/17/2000, (#53) The light switch, river, 11:30:40, 9/17/2000, (#54) Best enhancements I can make..., Dunvegan, 13:53:54, 9/17/2000, (#55) The foto, river, 19:36:47, 9/17/2000, (#56) Light Switch, Pope38, 21:40:14, 9/17/2000, (#57) Pope38, river, 03:35:48, 9/18/2000, (#58) Hey, I have to agree with Lake here---, fiddler, 01:35:38, 9/19/2000, (#59) Not Me., Lacey, 06:14:42, 9/19/2000, (#60) Light switch in basement crypt, MJenn, 08:51:35, 9/21/2000, (#61) Put Me Down, Paralegal, 16:36:42, 9/21/2000, (#62) More FYI re: light switch, MJenn, 02:40:58, 9/23/2000, (#63) that proves?, Edie Pratt, 12:07:06, 9/23/2000, (#64) Another liar?, river, 16:41:20, 9/28/2000, (#65) The fact that he was allowed, Edie Pratt, 16:53:54, 9/28/2000, (#66) Man, oh man, fly, 17:11:52, 9/28/2000, (#67) fly..., LurkerXIV, 18:29:47, 9/28/2000, (#74) whoa, Edie Pratt, 17:18:41, 9/28/2000, (#68) Edie, fly, 17:23:28, 9/28/2000, (#69) thank you, Fly, Edie Pratt, 17:31:22, 9/28/2000, (#70) I can understand, river, 18:03:36, 9/28/2000, (#71) OK River, Edie Pratt, 18:24:21, 9/28/2000, (#73) But FW, river, 03:32:43, 9/29/2000, (#75) River.., Florida, 18:14:41, 9/28/2000, (#72) Am I, river, 06:03:46, 9/29/2000, (#76) more on Glenn, river, 08:34:28, 9/29/2000, (#77) ................................................................... "White Buffalo, or Who Do You Trust?" Posted by Gemini on 19:20:24 9/11/2000 In Stephen King's book, Bag of Bones, he describes one of the main characters as a "White Buffalo" ... meaning this guy had the ability to influence a fairly large number of people. Last week, on one of the JW threads, part of the discussion had to do with whether or not anyone connected with this case was a "hero". So far, I don't see anyone I consider a hero, but there are a few white buffalo ... the people we tend to trust when it comes to being up front and true to their own conscience. So, who do you trust? Who would you be most likely to believe IF they told you they had information that definitely convinced them of who killed Johbenet Ramsey? As long as people say what we want to hear, or echo our pre-set opinions, it isn't a stretch to believe them. But, who (if anyone) do you trust enough to believe EVEN IF their conclusion doesn't agree with you? Pro-Rams - Who could come closest to convincing you the Ramsey parents are guilty ... just by saying they believe it is so? Anti-Rams - Who might make you wonder whether you could be wrong? Fencers - Choose either or both ... hey! we need a perk occasionally :-) . This fencer would probably jump over on the Ramseys dunnit side if Lou Smit came out with that conclusion, or Be more convinced the parents were innocent if Henry Lee nixed their involvement. and you? [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 1. "Trust " Posted by lake on 19:46:48 9/11/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 19:46:48, 9/11/2000 Lou Smit and Lou Smit only. The man has the record and the man has the references. And I would say that he likely made a very good impression on the GJ if Kane's objective was to move to trial unless the White Buffalo to some, Boyles, was anything but wrong about the whole dang case. Don't trust Henry Lee. Anybody who would pull the scam he pulled in the OJ case on live TV is not to be trusted. He did not lie, but he misrepresented the hell out of that evidence he testified about. Besides, I can only understand ever other word Lee says. I am one of those persons that are not impressed by theatrics in a court room. I knew that was JC even with that knit cap on. But I'll bet some that jury was fooled. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 2. "trust?" Posted by Nandee on 19:53:24 9/11/2000 Not Lou Snit.... He's a dinosaur and has lost his edge.... Henry Lee because his reputation is on the line and he is not considering retirement, so he needs to be careful about what he says. Two things he said stick in my mind.... This is not a DNA case and maybe it was a accident, not a murder. (Not exact quotes.) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 4. "the show must go on" Posted by Edie Pratt on 20:03:03 9/11/2000 that's interesting, Lake. You said, "I am one of those persons that are not impressed by theatrics in the courtroom." Then, I take it, you won't be impressed with LWood when/if it goes to trial? He's the "King of Spin", remember? Plenty of carney in that fellow:-) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 3. "I'll play . . ." Posted by Ribaldone on 19:59:27 9/11/2000 assuming he was connected enough to know everything the BDP knows, Gregg McCrary. I'm not sure why, I just always believe everything this guy says. I totally trust him. I don't know why. It may be partially because he is removed from Boulder and doesn't really have anything personal invested in this investigation so he views it from an unbiased viewpoint. Also because he is highly experienced and very intelligent so as not to be easily fooled. If McCrary's convinced, I think I could be too. Also, Steve Thomas. I trust him to be an honest person and believe that if he became aware of evidence that proved the Ramseys' innocence, he would say so. And because of his staunch belief in Patsy's guilt, I don't think he would "switch sides" just because he was afraid of being sued, or for some other reason, as some journalists appeared to have done. I mean to say that because he so firmly believes in Patsy's guilt, it would have to be impressive evidence to change his mind. And if he did change his mind, I would trust him to be doing the right thing for the right reason and I'd believe him. But, I must emphasize that I would HAVE to know what the evidence was. As much as I believe these two guys to be honest and trustworthy, I don't know them personally. They could be on the verge of a mid-life crisis, or mental breakdown for all I know. I wouldn't completely change my opinion that one or both Ramseys are involved without knowing what kind of evidence has cleared them. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 5. "You know," Posted by Gemini on 20:08:56 9/11/2000 it may seem strange because I don't think Thomas is a hero, and don't think he should have written the book while the case is still open, but 'way down deep, I think he's an honest person too Rib. (ouch! rolling thunder ... gotta go) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 7. "GERALDO RIVERA!" Posted by Ginja on 20:24:31 9/11/2000 Just kidding. I second Ribaldone and vote for McCrary. He's honest: he's not involved, has nothing to gain or lose, and takes in zip for his efforts. And he's credible: he's a seasoned, experienced investigator who hasn't lost his touch or his objectivity. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 6. "EP" Posted by lake on 20:24:18 9/11/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 20:24:18, 9/11/2000 I appreciate theatrics for entertainment. But in a trial, it is the beef and not the advertising or the bark that I pay attention to. Mark Furham was a great lier, but when the beef hit him, his advertising and bark could not carry the day. And the same would likely go for the likes of a Steve Thomas type. As for McCrary, I doubt that he knows enough about the evidence and circumstances in this case to take the stand on anything other than statistics and generalized observations. He is just another talking head on the Ramsey case as far as I am concerned. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 9. "Theatrics" Posted by Ginja on 20:38:29 9/11/2000 Once upon a time, I wanted to be an actress. This is true, don't laugh. I took it seriously, studied drama at the university, music, dance, the whole schmiel. I was excited; my father wasn't. He took a day out of work and drove to campus, took me out to lunch. We had a nice talk. He told me I'd get nowhere in this business except some director's couch; he told me how tough the business was and how hard it was to get in, and I'd be just another waitress waiting for the big break. "You wanna act?", he said, "be a lawyer! Now that's theatre!" After lunch, I changed my major. :-) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 11. "True" Posted by lake on 20:49:25 9/11/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 20:49:25, 9/11/2000 And there are a lot of bad actors on both sides of the courtroom. And very few qualify for the academy award. Most who I have observed could not make the cut in a B grade movie. I saw a clip of Darnay Hoffman back during the subway V. civil trial, and Hoffman seemed to thing he was testing for a part on a comedy starring Jerry Lewis. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 8. "hold the mayo,Leak" Posted by Edie Pratt on 20:26:45 9/11/2000 I think, should there be a trial, that we will see some BIG BUNS with that BEEF. Fire up the grill, and let's watch the HAM flip the burgers, lol. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 10. "Miracle" Posted by pinker on 21:02:40 9/11/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 21:02:40, 9/11/2000 was the name given to a white buffalo calf that was born outside of Janesville Wisconsin a few years ago. In American Indian culture it is seen as a apocalyptic event. This case needs a miracle not a hero [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 12. "My white buffalo" Posted by v_p on 21:00:35 9/11/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 21:00:35, 9/11/2000 would come in the form of a lawsuit by the Rams against Steve Thomas...my a$$ would be up on that fence with you so fast Gem it'd make your head spin! That's all it would take for me to step back and re-evaluate my stance. I think McCrary has all but said he thinks the Rams are involved. I believe Steve Thomas knows a lot more than he put into his book or has said in public. He's very articulate, yet cautious, in his wording. I believe there are things, evidence, he has not revealed and I respect him for that...and because I believe that, I believe he had a damned good reason for sticking his neck out and publishing his book. He says Patsy's good for it and I believe him. edited to change and to yet :o) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 13. "No heroes..." Posted by Greenleaf on 21:46:33 9/11/2000 I don't see any heroes in this case, but there is an obvious heroine; JonBenet Ramsey. A beautiful little girl; murdered in her own home on Christmas night. A child, manipulated and abused, whose image has been flashed the world over. She has become the poster child for abused and murdered children everywhere. We weep, because no man or woman, in the entire judicial system of this great United States of America, has taken the bull by the horns and arrested the obvious murderers. Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus, but there is no hero in the Ramsey case. Another Christmas will come and go, and the citizens of Boulder, Colorado, will continue to distance themselves from the Ramsey case. Ho, Ho, Ho; they will drink their eggnog and sing Christmas carols, but they do not care to remember the little girl who was murdered in their fine town. The pine tree, beneath JonBenet's window, has withered and died. The cold winds of the coming winter will soon revisit that dead, eerie place. The ghosts from the past are looking for justice in all the wrong places. Our heroine did not die from natural causes. She was beaten, abused, strangled and hit over the head with great force. At the tender age of six, she was too little and too young to defend herself, from the evil that visited her that dreary night. We can only imagine the horror of her last hours and minutes on this earth. We have the technology to solve this case, but we do not have one strong hero to come forth and demand justice for our little heroine; not one! God save us all from apathy, villains, and wastelands, without a single hero in sight. Greenleaf [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 14. "Greenleaf...." Posted by rose on 22:51:37 9/11/2000 People need to be reminded of how Jonbenet died. How Jonbenet suffered. How small and helpless she was. How dependent all children are on the good will and protection of adults. I truly think there is a special place in hell reserved for the abusers of Gods Angels. Those of us who have been parents of a six year old girl can think back and see them in our mines eye. We can always see the delicate little mouth when they are chewing. The baby dimples that their little hands still hold the traces of. The trusting look in their eyes when they look into ours. That look that tells us they know we are there and they can be safe. Jonbenet did not have an easy death and If the murderer can live with that they are a monster that should not be allowed to walk free among us. Has the murderer molested before, will they molest and possibley murder again? The answer to both those questions is yes. IMHO. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 15. "Heroes" Posted by momo on 04:47:49 9/12/2000 I used to think there were alot of heroes on the case, but I have since changed my mind. There are egos, but no heroes. Seems that a little girl named JonBenet who was brutally murdered in her home on Christmas night has been forgotten, lost in the shuffle. As of late, I have come to the conclusion that there are many who claim to want JfJBR, but their actions and words tell me different. Maybe God himself will be the Hero in this case. At least in the end He will. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 16. "That was a" Posted by Watching you on 07:18:51 9/12/2000 loaded question, Gemini, especially since there are so many despicable players in the JBR case. If you had asked who the most reprehensible characters were, I think this thread would have been filled long ago. Isn't it sad I cannot think of any major white buffalos? Except one, maybe two. I admire Steve Thomas for having the intestinal fortitude to go against the establishment and let some of the stench out of Boulder powerdom. I also have a good amount of respect for Fleet White, who has steadfastly refused to play the media game and who has endured some vicious attacks against himself and his family. There are no heros here. There is, however, a huge supply of black-hearted, self-serving, arrogant, lying, cheating, narcississtic individuals. JBR deserved better. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 17. "Hero...." Posted by rose on 10:23:58 9/12/2000 I think Fleet White is the only hero for Jonbenet. He has stood up for JFJBR when all the other people who knew her now refer to her as THAT CHILD. All he has gotten in return is grief and scandal thrown his way. He has kept his testimony pure and untainted with his non media stance. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 19. "nope, not a loaded question" Posted by Gemini on 10:39:11 9/12/2000 But, it is getting turned around from what was intended. It isn't "who's a hero". Clearly stated in the first post - I don't see a hero here. Whose opinion of the case do you MOST trust ... who do you believe is most up-front. If you don't believe anybody is capable of making a good assessment - and being truthful - then, that's your answer. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 24. "An Informed Opinion...." Posted by Voyager on 11:23:34 9/12/2000 If anyone in this case can provide an informed opinion, and one in which I would personally put my faith, it is Fleet White. Fleet White, whatever you may think of him personally, was a close family friend to both John and Patsy Ramsey. He is the father of JonBenet's closest girlhood friend. His wife and he were intimately involved in the family life of the Ramseys. They were socially present at the Ramsey home all during the holidays the season of JonBenet's murder. Fleet and Pricilla White were the hosts of the Christmas day dinner hosting the Ramseys in their own home only hours before JonBenet's murder. They were among the last witnesses to see JonBenet alive, and were witnesses to both the physical and mental state of the family as they left the White home the night the murder occurred. The Whites were present at the Ramsey home the morning after the murder (assuming the murder occurred before midnight Chirstmas night)...having been called on an emergency basis by the Ramseys, to join them in the immediate crisis, on the "kidnapping" of JonBenet. They were witness to the words and actions of the Ramsey family, including Burke, during the earliest moments of the report that JonBenet was missing, through the discovery of her murdered body in the basement of the Ramsey home. Fleet White helped search the basement for JonBenet or any clues left by the "abductor" and in fact was with John in the basement at the moment of discovery.....he was there to observe perhaps more action and reaction by the Ramseys than anyone else in this entire case. He may have at first, viewed what he saw as odd and stressed behavior, and then later reevaluated it as guilty behavior, when he reconsidered the events in light of the total picture and total evidence. His evaluation of the Ramseys later behavior including the days immediately following, the funeral in Atlanta, and their noncooperation with the police etc. are enormously valuable when combined with his history with the Ramseys, and his onsite observations Christmas day, and the following day at the Ramsey home (scene of the crime!). Whatever anyone may think of Fleet White's personality, or may suspect about his sexual backgound (I personally have respect for the man and no suspicions of any deviancy on his part), I think he is the person to be most respected as far as his opinion on who committed the murder of JonBenet Ramsey. Fleet White has the combination of personal background with the family and the victim, and knows the community in which the crime was committed and investigated. He knows all the players ei. BPD, DA, press, extended family and friends, and the Colorado financial/political situation. Who could possibly give a more informed opinion. And yes I believe that he has proven over and over again, his sincere interest and integrity concerning the bringing of Justice to the Ramsey case. I still hope for a jury trial in the Ramsey case and I think Fleet White will be the witness who holds the final cards to convict the killer/killers. And Yes, I still love all of yas who hold opposite opinions about Fleet and other issues concerning him....this thread is not about us, it is about our theories. Hope for some honest discussion and debate. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 18. "Heros?" Posted by Ribaldone on 10:39:02 9/12/2000 IMO, this case is not about heros. How can there be heros when the case is still unsolved? The two people I mentioned above -- McCrary and Thomas are two people whom I trust to tell the truth regardless where it leads. I also believe Michael Kane to be honest and trustworthy. I believe that if he didn't honestly believe Patsy was involved, he wouldn't be pursuing her as a possible suspect. I don't refer to either of them as heros or anyone else connected to this case. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 21. "I would trust" Posted by Watching you on 10:53:04 9/12/2000 Steve Thomas. I believe in Michael Kane. I believe FW will tell the truth if there is ever a trial. Other than that....zip. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 20. "I just thought of another one . . ." Posted by Ribaldone on 10:52:51 9/12/2000 Mark Furhrman. If he reviewed everything the BDP had and came back saying there was NO WAY Patsy or John did this, I would definitely have to stop and think about that. He has no reason to lie and he's experienced enough to know real evidence vs. staging or non-evidence (i.e., packing peanuts which has no relevance to the case). [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 22. "Ribaldone" Posted by momo on 11:09:35 9/12/2000 I too think I could trust Mark Fuhrman. I was thinking that about ten threads back. You and I seem to think alike. Great minds, huh? I also think I could trust the FBI, without John Douglas (I think that's his name). I think the FBI knows darn well who committed the murder. They know alot more than we think. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 23. "Momo" Posted by Ribaldone on 11:36:27 9/12/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 11:36:27, 9/12/2000 I guess we do think alike! I trust the FBI too. Regardless of what John Ramsey says they are independent of the BDP and have no reason to "want" the Ramseys to be guilty. It's not their case so if it isn't solved, it's not their "problem," as it were. It doesn't reflect badly on them either way so they have no vested interest, other than wanting to see justice done for a murdered child. And I too, trust Fleet White. If he told me the Ramseys WEREN'T guilty, it wouldn't sway me because he's not a professional crime scene investigator and can only base his observations on his personal opinion and common sense. I could do that too (based on his observations) so I don't need him to tell me whether they're guilty or innocent or whether the crime scene was staged. I can see that for myself. But I do believe he will tell the truth on the stand. I believe he's honest. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 25. "Did Someone Mention Henry Lee?" Posted by LurkerXIV on 18:08:51 9/12/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 18:08:51, 9/12/2000 Here's an interesting look at Dr. Lee's background: http://www.MarthaMoxley.com/news/09122Kgt.htm I wouldn't count Dr. Lee out just yet in the JonBenet Ramsey case. This case has got to be bugging Lee in his "retirement". (He's still working 17 hour days). [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 26. "Chuck" Posted by pinker on 20:01:58 9/12/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 20:01:58, 9/12/2000 Green, maybe. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 27. "Norm Early" Posted by sabrina on 18:56:54 9/12/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 18:56:54, 9/12/2000 This man is wise! He is a wonderful commentator, my favorite! Whatever he says makes perfect sense--not only about this case, but about everything he has ever discussed. Can't forget my other two favorites--Wendy Murphey and Nancy Grace. And for reporters/interviewers-- Carol McKinley,Katie Couric and Paula Zahn. They didn't back down. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 28. "Voyager" Posted by RiverRat on 20:03:30 9/12/2000 Thank you for saving me from all of that typing because your post is exactly what I would have liked to have put together! I believe the spin on FW's "hovering" over Patsy was due to the fact that he was already on to her/them. As far as an involved official, I would trust McCrary and Thomas. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 29. "Voyager" Posted by Gemini on 13:18:52 9/13/2000 I saw your post on yesterday's daily, but at the time I read it (last night), something came up in RT that left me no opportunity to reply or read here. Today, I'm going to do this first (well ... after I read the daily thread) so it won't get left out. I, too, would love to hear anything White has to say, including (maybe especially) background information. But, there is a problem with whether or not he's the important witness many would like to believe, IMO. So far, nothing he's said or done indicates he holds any keys to the solution of this case. Everything we, the public, have seen has been activity and documents that pertain to his own interests in distancing himself and his family from suspicioun of involvement and salvaging their reputations. Now, first, I'll hasten to say that is not necessarily a bad thing. But, it simply does nothing to enforce the idea he has JfJB as a top priority. Next, i'd like to quote from Chart's post on today's daily thread in which she shared information about a statement from Henry Lee. Lee said (in response from a question by Chart about the likelyhood of this case going to trial): ... In order to solve a crime, four elements must be present: #1. a good crime scene #2. physical evidence #3. public support (in terms of witnesses coming forward) #4. luck. In the case of JonBenet Ramsey we have none of these elements present (emphasis, mine). We still have a couple of pieces of evidence to work on. Hopefully, with a little luck, we'll get somewhere. (The above response was paraphrased, but almost exact). Pay particular attention to Lee's #3. IF White is important to this case as a witness, why does Lee contend "no support". I don't want to get anyone all upset by once again suggesting there should be something less than total confidence in FW's value as a witness, but IMO, he's not a White Buffalo. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 30. "Oh, Lake, Please." Posted by La Contessa on 14:32:42 9/13/2000 Every murder that Lou Smit brags about "solving" was screamingly obvious from the evidence. No detective work was necessary. The perp, in those cases, was glaringly evident. The only one he "solved" was the ONE where the victim was stungunned (sound familiar?). And he's STILL belaboring that old chestnut, trying to recapture his glory days, by applying the same logic, used in that case, to the murder of JBR where it doesn't apply. Lou Smit solved ONE murder in his entire career. And, for the record, Lou Smit's "record" includes purloining the Ramsey case files. This is a man you tout as TRUSTWORTHY?? The jury in the OJ Simpson trial wasn't FOOLED. They found him not guilty because he's black and because he's OJ Simpson. They KNEW he was guilty. They didn't CARE. Period. End of story. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 31. "LC" Posted by lake on 14:41:32 9/13/2000 This is a free county. I still think Lou Smit is a better detective than you or Thomas and that he can probably make a better assessement of the evidences and circumstances in case than you or Steve Thomas can. The fact that it serves your puropses to discount Smit and give weight to Thomas and the tabolid press is your own business. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 32. "ACH!!! Voyager" Posted by Gemini on 14:48:40 9/13/2000 Please be tolerant of the wild assortment of typo/spelling errors in the post to you (above). Knew I'd failed to preview and, now, don't have time to go back, proof and correct. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 33. "How could I have forgot . . ." Posted by Ribaldone on 15:57:55 9/13/2000 the one person who always tells us the truth (in one way or another) . . . Patsy. She is constantly confessing her sins and trying to let us know what really happened. During the Baba Wawa interview, Baba said to Patsy (paraphrased), "her nightie was left by her body and she was wrapped in a blanket. It appears that this was done by someone who cared for her very much." Patsy nods her head like a dash-board Chihuahua, then catches herself and shakes her head no. Patsy's dying to tell us the truth, and she generally does -- in one way or another -- and I, for one, believe her. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 34. "Gemini....." Posted by Voyager on 11:32:13 9/14/2000 This is only my personal observation of course, but it seemed to me that Fleet White did not rush to give information to the press as many involved in the Ramsey case did. I thought he showed dignity and restraint in keeping any real evidence private, and then testifying before the grand jury. It has been my understanding that both the grand jury members and those who testified before the grand jury were under a gag order strictly enforced by Colorado law, and would be prosecuted for publicly revealing any of their testimony. Am I wrong in this assumption? If not, then of course Fleet White would not be forthcoming with the information that some here on the forum wish for, and find suspicious of him that he has not revealed it. I believe that he is keep himself above the fray and as much as possible, out of the public eye in order to remain a credible witness when the killers are eventually brought to trial. Of course now we will just wait to see if he is our White Buffalo or not Gem, but I am betting on him. As far as Lee's statement; My question here is was Lee involved and made privy to all the case information, including grand jury testimony, or was he only given access to forensic or physical information held by the DA's office? If Dr. Lee did not have access to Fleet White's grand jury testimony and evidence, then perhaps that statement does not apply to Fleet at all. P.S. Please don't worry about spelling or punctuation for my sake. I am often a creative speller as I think faster than I spell and rarely go back to edit....I say live with it! LOL! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 35. "Gem" Posted by river on 12:01:35 9/14/2000 Wasn't Bag of Bones a great book?!!! I thought you were asking people to choose someone that could change their minds from where they are now, but it appears most people have chosen people who agree with them already, so those are the only people they trust, and they're not going to change. I haven't a clue who killed JonBenet, and so far, I haven't come upon anybody I trust enough who could convince me one way or the other. I don't think Dr. Lee said anything to acquit OJ. I think he was completely misunderstood. He was very non-commital one way or the other when questioned on cross. I played his tapes back, when I had them, and he never said the blood evidence didn't fit the crime. I agree that OJ went free because he was black, the jury was black, and they made up their minds before they ever sat in the jury box. I don't think Lee had anything to do with it, and I don't think he let OJ off the hook at all. He said 'could be, couldn't be; that sort of thing. That's the way he always talks. I don't trust any of the investigators on the crime today. The police screwed up from day one, and they will protect each other. That's their code. Moving on from there, I know little about the cases that Lou Smit has solved, only that he was a homicide detective for a long time, so he must have had plenty of experience. Thomas, on the other hand, was examining his first homicide, so naturally he was inexperienced. I can't go with him. I'd like to see someone new, who was very experienced, very clever, but completely impartial come into the case and start over with no pre-conditioned ideas and nothing to cover up, but someone who wouldn't go out of their way to protect the police or the Ramseys. Is there such a person? Who would convince me? How about Columbo. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 36. "Voyager and River" Posted by Gemini on 13:25:37 9/14/2000 Voyager, I do hope you're right in your assessment of Fleet White. I always hold out hope people are bigger and less petty than they sometimes seem to be. I think there was a time when Lee only knew a select few of the details about this case, but have to wonder why he included #3 if he didn't know from firsthand (well, maybe secondhand) information. Whatever White knows, surely he included it in his GJ testimony, yet it doesn't seem it was enough to tip the balance (take things beyond reasonable doubt). River, I'm supposing the people who name their favorite opinionators are saying IF this person came out and said the Rams were innocent, they'd give his/her pronouncement as much credibility as they do the current position. Could be wrong, but that's how I'm reading it. Like you, I'm pretty humble about claiming to know who killed JBR ... I do NOT know ... but hold out hope we'll someday have the truth. When it comes to White Buffalo, I agree with those who are more likely to trust people with no vested interest in the outcome ... but i don't THINK that includes pundits and reporters/commentators who have taken a stand on one side or the other via the media, and whose reputations and credibility could be harmed if it turns out they're wrong. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 37. "Ribaldone (lol)" Posted by KrayonC on 00:02:12 9/15/2000 "Patsy nods her head like a dash-board Chihuahua.. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 38. "FW" Posted by river on 05:34:24 9/15/2000 I will never believe that FW stood on the threshold of the doorway to the wine cellar, and couldn't find a simple light switch that was on a wall right next to him. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 41. "General IMO " Posted by Lacey on 08:19:21 9/15/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 08:19:21, 9/15/2000 Jumping the Fence or Veering off Course? Depends on how one looks at it I suppose. After much consideration I don't see how anyone with clout could suddenly come forward and assert Ramsey innocence. Based on what? They have pieces of evidence beyond 50% that implies Ramsey guilt.. and only disjointed fragments that might suggest an intruder. Where ya gonna go with that? (The Swamp, obviously, lol) Musing ... who, who, who ... Well, the once-reliable Frank Coffman jumped the fence but his arguments fall short of rational and it is really not clear why he turned.. he says he just changed his mind and he's entitled. No prob. But I no longer consider him credible and I could never decide if he was ever an asset to JfJBR anyway, as intolerant and confrontational and positively prissy as he was .. is .. wellll .. those are characteristics consistent with Coffman no matter which side of the fence he's arguing. In any case I was surprised he bailed and I followed that issue for awhile, but his take-my-word-for-it assertions fell flat and I decided he had an agenda that had little to do with JfJBR. My point and I don't have one is.. oh, nevermind Thomas and others have already asserted that the issue is not probable cause. No. Not at all. The buck stops with Hunter who is apparently more concerned with control issues so he proffers reasonable doubt as the stumbling block to prosecution (not mentioning his own deficiencies as prosecutor). Henry Lee, handpicked company man Mark Beckner, and some others back Hunter on evidence issues that can be interpreted several different ways making it easy to confuse a jury enough to acquit. (I agree on the former disagree on the latter.) But the issue is not probable cause! Probable cause exists and it has been demonstrated over and over again that there is power in the evidence. Lou Smit??? You're kidding, right? Believe what you like, but the proof's in the performance. He and the Ramseys look thick as thieves and he has long lost all objectivity necessary to investigate their daughter's homicide. Steve Thomas had motive and opportunity and could have had Lou for lunch but to his credit, he refused to play that game. He likes Lou! And he said so. Thomas stuck with essentials and I, too, believe he held back critical information when he went forward with ITRI. Oh. What was the question? LOL I guess I danced around that one but I think my answer is in there somewheres Lacey . [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 40. "Gem" Posted by river on 08:00:30 9/15/2000 This was a good thread you started! You said: " don't THINK that includes pundits and reporters/commentators who have taken a stand on one side or the other via the media, and whose reputations and credibility could be harmed if it turns out they're wrong." Absolutely. Agree completely. Btw, I posted something (don't know if you caught it) after you posted your Yeats poem a couple days ago on one of Night's Owl's daily threads. My cable server was down again (as usual) so I couldn't post until pretty late, and Night Owl had already started the next day. Think it was Wednesday. More on book thread downstairs. riv [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 39. "That's good River" Posted by Ribaldone on 08:00:28 9/15/2000 because it wasn't on the wall next to him. That's why he couldn't find it! It was on another wall behind him. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 42. "the switch" Posted by river on 08:09:19 9/15/2000 according to the map in Schiller's book Appendix A, was on the right side of the inside wall in the room. White was facing inside. The perpendicular wall continued from the outside of the room to the inside of the room. The wall was right next to where he stood. How can that be behind him? He unlocks the latch, stands at the threshold looking inside (he doesn't go in) and says he can't see anything and can't find the light switch. If he went to the trouble of unlatching the door, he must have intended to go inside. All he had to do was put his arm out and feel around for it on wall. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 43. "Well River" Posted by Ribaldone on 15:31:51 9/15/2000 you're absolutely right. I heard Schiller say during an interview that the light switch was hard to find because it was counter-intuitive behind you as you enter. Now, I don't know what he meant by that because I'm looking at the diagram in his book and the switch is clearly on the side wall. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 44. "That pesky light switch" Posted by ayelean on 18:22:24 9/15/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 18:22:24, 9/15/2000 It IS conterintuitive. I'm sure it is right brain vs left brain relavent though! It was a dark yucky room, Fleet is looking to find a possible hiding JBR or an egress of an intruder. All of the thoughts that went through his head as he opened the door, made a decision, and backed out, probably happened in the blink of an eye, but could have included the following: . latched closed, no one in here... . no light filtering in so therefore no windows, no egress....... . 'where in the h... is the light' maybe it is a pull chain (light) in the middle of the room....... . too dark, too undesirable for JBR to be voluntarily be hiding..... . no sound of anyone rustling or breathing, no one in here...... . don't waste time looking here cover other places in this large house... remember, he didn't know at that time what he would learn a few hours later. I can see perfectly how how he missed seeing her there and how LHP under different circumstances found the light without difficulty. Fleet and LHP's mind work differently and circumstances were entirely different. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 45. "Ribaldone" Posted by river on 03:43:12 9/16/2000 I think what Schiller meant was, if he entered the room. (Depends how far he stepped in.) If he, went into the room, a few feet, then the switch would be, behind him, but Fleet says he didn't go inside the room. He said he did not actually enter the room. So what that means to me is, he unlatched the door, opened it and stood on the threshold. In such a case, the switch would be directly on his right. No problem finding it. Doesn't add up. If he was 'really' looking around (and there's no reason to think he wasn't) and he went to the trouble of unlatching the door in his search, he would expect (in the basement behind a closed door, to find a dark room) and would immediately look around for a light switch. I think he's lying about that switch. I think he found it. I think it's possible he saw someone. And that it was someone who knew he was hiding something personal about his life. So, he never spoke up. Instead, he said he couldn't find the light switch. I don't believe him. jmo. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 46. "River" Posted by Voyager on 11:15:38 9/16/2000 Will you explain your last few sentences about Fleet White to us? Do you think he found the light switch, turned it on and saw John? Do you think John has some incrimiating information about Fleet White. Come on let's have it, what are you indicating? My first thought when I heard that Fleet did not go into the room, was that he might have been just a little intimidated about stepping into a dark cellar room where he might find someone or something he was not prepared for....maybe not conciously afraid, but who among us would not give pause about entering a cold, dark, cellar room in a house where a criminal act (supposedly kidnapping) had just been reported....my subconcious would be saying "Be careful!" Maybe Fleet was just a little fearful, and having found the room door latched in the first place, just assumed that it would be safe to report the room clear, and move on without admitting he had not explored it. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 47. "what I find strange" Posted by Edie Pratt on 12:02:52 9/16/2000 is that FW obviously felt very comfortable in the Ramsey home, because he helped himself to a look see, whereas the rest of the "guests" did not. Hence, this tells me he'd been thru that house before, and that he must have been to the basement on more than one occassion. I am not saying he did anything wrong, I'm only saying the house was not all that mysterious. In fact, FW owned a house on the same block, and back in the old days, the houses were built alike by the same builder. His basement in his rental, was probably layed out like the R's. What is really strange, seems to me, is that FW thought to look for her down there, when everybody upstairs was saying she'd been kidnapped! He clearly did NOT buy that story, lol. Had JB gone to the basement or that room before, when Uncle Fleet was visiting? Why'd he think to go down there, especially since he arrived AFTER the police? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 48. "Voyager" Posted by river on 12:50:31 9/16/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 12:50:31, 9/16/2000 No, I don't think he saw John. But I do think he recognized someone he knew, and someone who knew something about him; something he didn't want the general population of Boulder to know about himself. I can think of no other reason he would say he 'couldn't find a light switch' that was right there, except that he was afraid if he identified who he saw, his life would be changed forever. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 49. "OK River, Let's Hear It....." Posted by Voyager on 21:38:07 9/16/2000 Are you talking Santa, Pasta Jay, Puleeezzzeee Not MW! Who on earth are you aluding to...can't stand it one second more! If you do not answer, and answer sensibly, I am going to totally disregard your comments and consider this a joke and a tease!.... In your court River....deliver or go forever into the corridor of disregard.....am sitting here trying to imagine the fearful face of knowledge gazing eiriely back at Fleet from that dark cellar room....just can't envision it! River you better do some splain'in here! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 50. "I really hate it..." Posted by Dunvegan on 23:40:18 9/16/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 23:40:18, 9/16/2000 ...when a post-in-progress goes *POOF* due to cyber-gremlins.... I'll try again: I was writing about how obscure a light switch placement can be. The resturants in San Francisco that are shoehorned into refurbished and remodled Victorian-era and pre-1906 earthquake buildings are legion. It makes for some creative and confusing conduit construction. A number of times I've swept into a restaurant lavatory in an older building and upon closing the door behind me, found myself in the pitch waving around for where the light switch is "supposed" to be, to no avail. I start brushing my right hand in an arc about a foot or so deep, and from about hip to head. If it's not there, I shimmy to the left wall and I try the same gesture with my left hand. Sometimes, there's no light switch where it's supposed to be. When this happens, I open the door, and back out to the threshold and let light in from the hall, or kitchen, or whatever. I have been surprised to find light switches in front of me...but on the far wall, lamps purched on tiny tables beyond the sink, bulbs and pulls hanging both approximately and not-very-approximately mid-room, and a few switches actually placed on the wall to the right where I expected it to be...but only a few feet from either the floor or a low ceiling. My understanding is that the light fixture in the "unfinished wine cellar" room was only a foot or two from the floor, the box jutting out from some hastily installed conduit, very near the floor. ACR posts these illustrative photos of the non-intuitive placement of the light swithch in the so-called wine cellar: BTW: This room was NOT a wine cellar at the time of JBR's death...it was called the wine cellar because the Ramesys had wanted to turn the raw concrete slab room into a wine room, perhaps because the room was much like a cooler. An attribute of that particular room that the Ramseys may have been quite aware of, considering the plans to store wine there. The cold also made the room an excellent place to put a body to retard decomposition. (Not to mention the broken pane in the other room let in more cold.) Edited because I posted without copyreading. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 51. "thank you Dunvegan!" Posted by ayelean on 03:46:05 9/17/2000 :-) how very french, oui ze wine cellar! [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 52. "near the floor?" Posted by river on 04:56:55 9/17/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 04:56:55, 9/17/2000 I've been following this case for 3+ years. I have posted at J-7, Murf's forums, CNN, WS, Jameson's, a few small forums (now gone) and here. I have never heard that the light switch was near the floor. Can you tell me the source for that? Please! Hello Voyager: I started two threads with speculation about what you asked. Both just moved into the former set of archives. "A Couple Questions" and "A Couple Questions #2. There's also a lot of stuff in there about the light switch and the broken window. In there, I speculated whom I thought he might have seen, though it could have been anyone who knew about him in a 'specific way'. I have repeatedly said I haven't a clue who killed JonBenet, but that doesn't mean that I can't reflect on certain criteria that doesn't make sense to me. FW says he unlatched the door, but didn't go in the room because he couldn't find a light switch. That didn't make sense to me. (unless the switch was really near the floor, and that I'd never heard before). If he really couldn't find the switch, why didn't he ask someone? That's why I really think he saw someone, and whomever he saw he was afraid to expose. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 53. "River..." Posted by Dunvegan on 10:58:29 9/17/2000 ...then it's time you trickle over to http://www.angelfire.com/oh2/Candy/basement.html ACR has a full photographic tour of the house, all interior levels, and exterior shots. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 54. "The light switch" Posted by river on 11:30:40 9/17/2000 I went to the URL you pointed out and saw the lines, but, I can't make out very much from those fotos. I showed the fotos to my husband, 'cause he's done some electrical work and carpentry, but he says he never saw a light switch put down so near the floor, and that from the foto, it was hard to tell how low down it actually was. Normally, he tells me, light switches are put about four ft. up from the floor. Of courses, anything is possible. In PMPT, Appendix A, the light switch is labled but there are no indications that the light switch is way down low, only that it's on the right wall. That strikes me as odd, because if the placement were down as low as it is labeled on the foto, I would think it would be mentioned. Ginja mentioned that those layouts in PMPT supposedly came from the blue-prints. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 55. "Best enhancements I can make..." Posted by Dunvegan on 13:53:54 9/17/2000 ...from the source photos: [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 56. "The foto" Posted by river on 19:36:47 9/17/2000 In the enhancement, the lower arrow appears to me to be pointing to a double plug, not a light switch, and it's where a plug would normally be. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 57. "Light Switch" Posted by Pope38 on 21:40:14 9/17/2000 Schiller never said that the light switch in the wine cellar was counterintuitive. He said the light switch at the top of the stairs leading to the basement was counterintuitive. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 58. "Pope38" Posted by river on 03:35:48 9/18/2000 That's true. I remember the switch at the top of stairs was identified as behind you, but I didn't remember who said that. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 59. "Hey, I have to agree with Lake here---" Posted by fiddler on 01:35:38 9/19/2000 that for me, Lou Smit would be the doubt-ender. Not because of any "spectacular" case he's previously solved, but just because of his cumulative experience, and because I think he's a decent, honest man. If he said the Ramseys did it, or even that they MIGHT have done it, that would be the end of all speculating for me. Having said that, I also think that one of the most horrible things about this case is the way the Ramseys seem to use each person's best instincts against the person, for John and Patsy's own ends. Just like Alex Hunter. He thought Patsy did it, and would break down, and would confess--and he tailored his approach to make that easy, from pity for her. Well, she didn't confess, and now the case is horribly compromised. I don't think Hunter is corrupt--in fact, I think he's still quite idealistic. And John and Patsy know perfectly well how to use that for their own purposes. So, if Lou Smit--one of their most valuable "puppets"-- says they're guilty, or even suddenly starts with the "no comment" stuff--I'll know for sure they did it. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 60. "Not Me." Posted by Lacey on 06:14:42 9/19/2000 Not Lou. It would have to be somebody with some credibility intact. And that is not Lou Smit, not by any stretch of the imagination. (But that's what this thread is about anyway, huh?, stretching the imagination!) Well Lou won't do. Problem is, I can think of no one with any credibility left who would make such an about-face assertion! (Believe me I tried.) All the beeg guns got their money on Ramseys. And for legitimate reasons, I might add. Not Lou's Logic. Poor Lou. It's too late. He's not credible. Period Lacey . [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 61. "Light switch in basement crypt" Posted by MJenn on 08:53:20 9/21/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 08:53:20, 9/21/2000 I hate to do this, since it seems the thread has run its course, but even worse I hate to start an entire thread to bring up an explanation no one may be interested in... what to do, what to do. Another reason that White may have had trouble finding the light switch, besides it possibly being too low on the right wall, is that the light switch is usually installed on the wall which holds the door frame, and usually on side that opposite the door on its hinges. That's why having the light at the top of the basement stairs on the hall wall across from the door to the basement is "counter-intuitive." I once read that during the Vietnam War, Vietcong installed booby traps in light swiches because they knew Americans would automatically go for the light switch without thinking. It is true that when you've spent your whole life with them, habits are not even noticeable. So if he opened the door, left to right from the pictures, he would naturally be looking for the light switch on the left inner wall, or even left outer wall. Since he was possibly thinking this was a kidnapping, maybe he neither saw, heard, nor sensed any life in the room, and so moved on. Oh, yeah: if anyone is interested in keeping this going, I think a new thread is in order, right, Chris? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 62. "Put Me Down" Posted by Paralegal on 16:36:42 9/21/2000 for the FBI as the one whose word I would trust. Why? Cuz the Rams are so damn AFRAID of them, that's why! BPD should have turned the case over to the feds when they were called in at the beginning, and the crime scene wouldn't have been botched, deals not been made with the number one suspects, and indictments issued. That's how it's supposed to happen, does happen, everywhere but in Boulder. It's been 4 years, Colorado has had more than a fair shot at making it happen and has failed. Time for the feds to step in.... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 63. "More FYI re: light switch" Posted by MJenn on 02:40:58 9/23/2000 I can't believe I just found a "National Enquirer" that has the exact picture y'all have posted above of the basement room and the light switch. (It was my dad's Enquirer--that rag is made for people like him.) I found it among other mag's and flipped to a JonBenet story, April 11, 2000 issue. This printed photo is much clearer than any posted, including the link to Angelfire's site. Still, I had to get a magnifying glass to figure it out, because there are TWO electical conduits coming down that inner right wall, and the only one you can see in the posted photo is the larger which IS a plug-in outlet box, as someone thought. But in this clearer picture, with a magnifying glass you can make out a thinner conduit in front of the outlet conduit. The thinner conduit is harder to make out because it's--yeah--thinner. The light switch to which it runs is also very small, with only a box large enough to actually hold the switching mechanism for the up and down flip switch--maybe a one inch cube. Very small. One other thing: the light switch is actually a little lower than the outlet box. It'd be a challenge finding it if you hadn't used it before, or if it had been awhile. I've never seen such an electrical rig that low. Who knows why it was installed that low. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 64. "that proves?" Posted by Edie Pratt on 12:07:06 9/23/2000 it certainly proves to me that FW had never been in that room before. JR is such a liar. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 65. "Another liar?" Posted by river on 16:41:20 9/28/2000 "Glenn Meyer son" (The Boarder) Posted by ibnora on 21:34:18 9/02/2000 This from the San Francisco Chronicle http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/1996/06/20/MN38623.DTL Thomas A. Meyer Thursday, June 20, 1996 A memorial service for marketing executive Thomas A. Meyer of San Francisco will be held Monday in Corona del Mar. Services are also being planned in San Francisco and Monterey. Mr. Meyer was slain early Sunday in Boston. He was 38. He was in Boston for a wedding and was shot after walking two friends home in the city's South End. He and a Boston man were killed within a block of each other, and Boston newspapers said Mr. Meyer was probably an innocent bystander who happened to witness the other shooting. Mr. Meyer was born in St. Louis and spent most of his childhood in Newport Beach. A 1980 graduate of the University of California at Berkeley in French and political science, he lived in the Bay Area on and off since 1976. During the 1980s, Mr. Meyer worked as a translator in the Bay Area and France. He also did graduate work at the Monterey Institute of International Studies. For the past five years, he was a marketing executive at InVision Technologies of Foster City, but his avocation was Internet publishing. He served on the board of directors of the San Francisco Bay Area Book Council and coordinated the multimedia portion of the San Francisco Book Festival. Mr. Meyer is survived by his partner, Drew Bertagnolli of San Francisco; his mother, Ethel, of Newport Beach; his father, Glenn, of Colorado; and a brother, David, of Mission Viejo. Donations in his memory may be sent to the Lambda Legal Defense Fund in New York, CALPIRG in San Francisco, San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, KQED in San Francisco and the California Alumni Association in Berkeley. 40. "Scratching my head" Posted by Nandee on 21:02:42 9/03/2000 Newport Beach?? It says his mother was from Newport Beach.... Isn't that where Fleet White lived before moving to Boulder?? PMPT: page 253 Yes: Finally came across this: Hunter to Shapiro "As a prosecutor, it would be irresponsible for me not to look in other places, wouldn't it?" Hunter seemed to be thinking aloud. "I want to know who this guy Fleet White is. I want to know about his life in Newport Beach California, before he moved here. I'm just interested--that's all I'm saying." (Isn't it true that White wanted nothing to do with Hunter and would only talk to the BPD.) According to Schiller, Fleet talked frequently to police early on. Schiller called Fleet the police's most cooperative witness. But, FW did not trust Hunter. He claimed to be angry with him because he mistakenly thought Hunter gave out a picture of JonBenet and his daughter to the press. Were there any other reasons? On page 542: "Fleet White refused to come in voluntarily to talk to Hunter's staff. That alone confirmed the need to take the case to a GJ." Glenn Meyer's son was raised in Newport Beach CA., a small town between Laguna Beach and Costa Mesa, and that means that his father, Meyer, the boarder across the street, probably lived there as well. Hunter revealed that FW also once lived in Newport Beach, CA. Is the boarder across the street from the Ramseys, and JR's best friend, both formerly from Newport Beach, CA just a coincidence? Or, did they know each other before? Remember, the Lambda Organization is for Gays and the Lambda's Legal Defense Fund was set up to defend Gays and protect their rights. How was Glenn Meyer or his son connected to this organization? My other question is did Meyer know of or know FW before Boulder, and if so, how? Glenn Meyer was an early suspect in the crime; handwriting closely matched the note, he lived across the street in a basement, he was in $70,000 in debt, his son had recently been murdered, and he had no alibi that night, except to say he had the flu and went to bed about 9PM. But it is said he was not prosecuted because he passed a polygraph test. Possibly, but is that enough? Page 34 "White told the detectives that he had been there only a few minutes when he started to 'search' the house. Remember, he said he was 'searching' the house. Alone, he went down to the basement, found some of the lights on, and started calling out JonBenét's name. It was so cluttered down there; with boxes stacked everywhere and shelves overflowing with odds and ends that he could hardly see any open spaces where she might be. He started in Burke's train and hobby room, where he saw a suitcase sitting under a broken window. On the floor under the window, he found small pieces of glass. He placed some of them on the windowsill. WHY? That could have been evidence! Then he MOVED THE SUITCASE a few feet to get a closer look at the window." Again WHY? Was he the police? Was he a detective? White said he was sure the window was closed but unlatched. Why was White fooling around with pieces of glass from a broken window, touching doors and latches. Didn't he think it could be evidence? Especially since at that time of the morning, it was thought to be a kidnapping. PMPT: P. 34 "After he (FW) left the train room he turned right into the boiler room. At the back of the room, he said he saw a door to what the Ramseys called the wine cellar. He turned the closed wooden latch and opened the door. The room was pitch black, he said. He didn't enter and (says) he saw nothing. When he couldn't find a light switch, he closed the door and went back upstairs. He did not remember whether he relatched the door." If the room were latched and dark, and if White were truly searching for something, a clue, JonBenet, a kidnapper, anything, and he saw a dark latched room, why didn't he ask someone where the switch was (IF he could't find it?) Why didn't he get a flashlight? Call out? Wasn't he curious? If he wasn't, what the heck was he doing searching the basement? Cleaning? (closets perhaps?) Either he's lying or he's the stupidest person that ever was. I don't think he's stupid. I think he saw someone. This strange behavior of White's in the basement makes no sense to me. I don't believe him. I'm not accusing him of perpetrating a crime, because I don't think he did, but I wonder if he's withholding evidence. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 66. "The fact that he was allowed" Posted by Edie Pratt on 16:53:54 9/28/2000 to "search", is strange in itself. I mean, did the police just stand there, arms extended as if to say, "have at it people"? My GOD! I cannot count the episodes of COPS that show people interfering, only to be told they would be hauled in too, if they didn't shut up and butt out. Yet, it sounds as though the police gave anybody and everybody carte blanche that AM. WHY? Secondly, the fact that FW went looking and hollering out her name, seems to me,appears he didn't believe the kidnapping ruse. WHY NOT? How long was FW in the house before he went searching? Do we have an answer to that? I can't imagine that he brushed past the cops and headed directly to the basement, can you? Did he ask questions of anyone, or did he just carry on his own investigation without being briefed? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 67. "Man, oh man" Posted by fly on 17:11:52 9/28/2000 People want to hang the Ramseys for not searching all over the house, but when FW does it he's doing something suspicious? No question BPD shouldn't have allowed it, but that's an entirely different issue. river - I suspect Meyer's son's links to the gay defense fund is simply that he was gay. I strongly suspect that organization gets a lot of memorial donations. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 74. "fly..." Posted by LurkerXIV on 18:29:47 9/28/2000 ...right about Mr. Meyers and the memorial donations. Such donations are usually made to the favorite charities and causes of the DECEASED. There is an implication that Glenn Meyers himself may be gay. If so,the police would (and did) quite quickly remove him from the list of suspects. As posters have pointed out a zillion times, gay men ARE NOT INTERESTED in six year old girls. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 68. "whoa" Posted by Edie Pratt on 17:18:41 9/28/2000 I hope you're not talking to me, Fly. I'm not hanging FW or anyone else for looking. I would have searched myself, had I been in the same situation. My point is that NOBODY should have been in that situation, including JR, once the police arrived. I only questioned once before why FW was the only one to search, why not the other guests that were there first? Why did he feel the need to look where the cops had previously looked? Don't you find this strange? (on the police's part, that is) [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 69. "Edie" Posted by fly on 17:23:28 9/28/2000 No, mostly to river in this case. Also applies to others, but river is the most recent. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 70. "thank you, Fly" Posted by Edie Pratt on 17:31:22 9/28/2000 I do not belong to the FW did it club. I feel he has been scapegoated to the max, that his actions that morning were of an innocent, stunned man. I remember some discussion about his making Burke's bed when JR was readying the kid to go to Fleet's. I didn't see anything sinister in that, but many others did. I think he was flipped out, and nervous. However, I don't think he's any more a saint than you or I, and there very well could be background stuff he'd rather keep private, but nowhere in his actions that AM, can I find suspicion. Just stupidity on the cop's part, and cunning on JR's. FW was toyed with, at the very least. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 71. "I can understand" Posted by river on 18:03:36 9/28/2000 peoples doubts about FW intentions. I can certainly understand how the cops should be blamed for bungling the investigation. BUT, I just can't buy that White's strange search with no discovery, when JonBenet was there all the time, can all be blamed on nervousness. I still think he saw someone. And he knew who he saw. [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 73. "OK River" Posted by Edie Pratt on 18:24:21 9/28/2000 if FW saw someone, and knew that someone, WHERE DID THAT SOMEONE GO? How could anyone hiding in that basement that AM, sneak out? There were no other doors to go out but the one everyone came into. How could this hider in the house trust that FW wouldn't go marching upstairs and blow their cover? If the door is so close to the wall in the cellar, then he would have had to look to his far left to see her. I don't think there's anything weird about his actions with the door. He was calling her name, so clearly he thought she was alive. When he opened that door, couldn't find a switch, heard nothing from there, he closed the door. Case closed. And, why then all the fracas in Atlanta between FW and JR if FW already knew who was responsible? Where did you get the notion there was someone in that room, anyway? If you looked into a room that was dark, yet you could smell paintcans and maybe see old screens stacked against the wall, you would assume it was a workroom, not a death chamber, no? I am not entirely unreasonable, tho River. I think the scenario would work if say it were JAR he saw. I am not entirely sure that JAR wasn't in town that AM, that the fix was in to produce an ATM photo for an alibi. Afterall, we have heard NOTHING about the police meeting the older kids plane that afternoon, so who really knows if they were in air when the smit hit the fan? But, he wouldn't have gotten out of that basement once the cops arrived. Nobody's that brave. And, I doubt seriously that Packie and John Ramsedy would suffer this alone, on his behalf. Back to the drawing board.... [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 75. "But FW" Posted by river on 07:22:08 9/29/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 07:22:08, 9/29/2000 wouldn't blow their cover, because to expose that person would mean that person could expose him. Maybe you don't see what I'm driving at, and I don't want to accuse someone of trying to hide something about himself if they're not. I am implying though, and some people (even in this day and age) will go to any lengths to protect their identity. Would (if FW had such a secret) want to disrupt his whole public (and possibly private) lifestyle, his marriage, his position in the community by being exposed? You and I may think it's no big deal, but FW may have thought it a very big deal. How did the perp get out? Can't say for sure. Geez at 6 in the morning, in the dark would it have been so hard? The call to police was made at 5:52. Who was actually there when Fleet arrived? The police and John Fernie. How many police? Just French as near as I can make out. The house was not secured until 1:50 PM. Arndt didn't arrive until 8:10, and French was still there with some other detectives and 2 victim advocates when she arrived. By the time the 2nd police officer got to the house, the Whites and Fernies were already there. So it must have been just French. Had French already searched? We don't know. It only says French searched immediately and earlier. Earlier than White? Doesn't say. I would think if White started searching right after he arrived, and French arrived about the same time, FW's search may have occurred before French's. I think the first thing French would have done would be to talk to John, take a police report, read the ransom note, etc. Meanwhile, where was FW? Was he already searching the basement? If French had already searched the house, why did White do it too? Perhaps, because he arrived before French searched the house, and decided to take it upon himself. French said the door to the little room was latched when he went to the basement. White said he couldn't remember if he re-latched it or not. Well, if he was there before French, he obviously re-latched it. But we don't know who got there first, do we? White searched a 2nd time after the body was found. This time he sees the blanket in the center of the wine celler door. He also sees black duct tape (which he picks up) and then replaces. What is he thinking?!!! Again, he contaminates the evidence. Then he goes upstairs to 'guard' the door'. Schiller: "Everybody was justifiably upset that Officer French hadn't found the body in his initial search of the Ramsey house early that morning." (early when?) "Hofstrom, who had generally had a poor opinion of the BPD told Wise he thought the police had lost control of the crime scene before the body was found by allowing so many people into the house." Back to the early morning. The Fernies were with Patsy trying to comfort her, but Fleet was not, he was making his little search all alone just a few minutes after he arrived at 6. Possibly while French was taking a report. If Fleet made his search a few minutes after he arrived at 6, the perp could have slipped out if he had a silent collaborator. Depends where the others were at the time. It appears the Fernies and John were with Patsy. Lots of doors in that house. And if-- (this is all strictly speculation) White didn't yet know about the death of JonBenet, the perp could have promised him information if he'd help him escape, or implication if he did not. Fleet is caught in the middle. He is trapped. At that point, he may have made a terrible mistake, and never wanted to admit to it for several reasons, one, he didn't one to implicate himself with the other (little) matter, and two, he didn't want anyone to ever know he actually saw the killer early on and said nothing. What other reason for his silence about his odd search? Why isn't he with French and the others? Why does he mess around with obvious evidence? Why does he say he couldn't find a light to a dark room (if he was searching, why didn't he attempt to get one?) Was he suddenly distracted? By 7, White And Fernie had taken Burke and the Fernie children all to the White's house. Forty five minutes later the two men returned to the Ramsey home. Earlier that morning, Fleet could have caused a distraction for a moment which allowed the killer to escape. The sun wouldn't have come up for at least another hour. He had an hour to get away and didn't have far to go. I'm working mainly from PMPT, which has most of the interviews and police reports, because as I said before, it had no agenda, and I think (though flawed) Schiller did a better job in his research than anyone else. I use very little information from other books (because they have definite agendas), nor from the tabloids, first, because I don't read them, and 2nd because I think tabloids confuse the issues (and me) more than inform, so I skip them. I know it's all speculation on my part, but isn't everything about this case speculation? If it wasn't we would have an arrest already. It's 5 in the morning. I popped a disk again last week, so have been mainly off my feet for the entire week. Don't sleep much lately. Have little to do but stay in bed, watch videos and research this case again. (thought I'd left it behind months ago, when the GJ came in with nothing.) I've been on steriods and pain pills since last Friday, so if all this stuff sounds weird, blame the pills, not me. Thanks, riv [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 72. "River.." Posted by Florida on 18:14:41 9/28/2000 Who do you think he saw? [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 76. "Am I" Posted by river on 06:28:04 9/29/2000 NOTE: This message was last edited 06:28:04, 9/29/2000 Am I being that obtuse? very scary, geez. Please read post #65. I think it's possible that FW saw someone he didn't expect to see. Someone who knew him (or of him) before he moved to Boulder. Someone who lived in Boulder (across the street from the Ramseys) when the murder was committed, and whom he may have met at the Ramsey Xmas party a few evenings before when he was invited in after stopping by. G. Mayer: "Didn't you used to live in Newport Beach?" FW: (caught off guard) "Uh, yeah, a while back." Meyer: "Think we may have met. Didn't you know my son years ago?" ...... FW moves off quickly and has another drink... Someone we know very little about, except that he was an early suspect for some pretty good reasons, which I have mentioned before,(post 65) and has long since disappeard from the scene. Try reading threads "A Couple Questions" 1 and 2 or the "FBI Thread." riv [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ] 77. "more on Glenn" Posted by river on 08:34:28 9/29/2000 Came up with a few things I found stored away on my WP. Meyer was born in Indiana. He married young and had two sons--moved to Pampano Beach, Florida. Moved in the 60's to Newport Beach, CA. He was divorced in 73. Moved around quite abit after his divorce. Had a CO real-estate license which expired in 1992. At some point he founded the Meyer Mortgage Co. After living in Boulder for a while, his business began to fail and he was involved with several lawsuits and judgments by 1996. He was heavily in debt. That summer of 96 his son was murdered. Could have been related to a homosexual crime. Meyer moved out of the Barnhills basement room, 2 months after the murder of JonBenet. I believe he had to give three handwriting samples to police, because they were so close to the Ramsey note. He passed a polygraphy test, and therefore was ruled out. In March of 97 a man named Glenn Meyer (same spelling) became the corporate officer of Boulder "KidzMagazine." Other agents of the magazine are also associated with real estate--one a well know lawyer in Boulder. All addresses as given are in Boulder at 4750 Table Mesa Dr. Went to KidzMagazine, on the MetaCrawler search engine and came up with this page. http://search.netscape.com/google.tmpl?search=kidzmagazine The first page listed is the following. http://www.thetemple.com/KidzMagazine/ Clicked on Articles: http://www.thetemple.com/KidzMagazine/ Selected Haunted Houses (for obvious reasons) http://www.thetemple.com/KidzMagazine/issue10.htm#Article20 (interesting) From Haunted House: "There are lots of places to build haunted houses but I find Basements and Garages the best (Make sure you have parent permission though). You can also do a haunted house outside. Just get a bunch of Tents and big Boxes (The Kind refrigerators come in) and put the together so that people can crawl or Walk through. (It's better if the people walk) After a haunted house is finished you can send people in so that they craw/walk around it themselves (In a basement or garage make a maze like area out of stacked boxes for walls) or you can guide them through it telling them a story about the place on the way." [ REMOVE ] [ ALERT ] [ EDIT ] [ REPLY ] [ REPLY WITH QUOTE ] [ TOP ] [ MAIN ]